{"id":44486,"date":"2023-12-04T21:08:58","date_gmt":"2023-12-05T03:08:58","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?p=44486"},"modified":"2023-12-04T21:12:27","modified_gmt":"2023-12-05T03:12:27","slug":"podcast-373-book-session-identity-crisis-part-2","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-373-book-session-identity-crisis-part-2\/","title":{"rendered":"podcast 373 \u2013 Book Session Identity Crisis \u2013 Part 2"},"content":{"rendered":"<div class=\"powerpress_player\" id=\"powerpress_player_2840\"><audio class=\"wp-audio-shortcode\" id=\"audio-44486-1\" preload=\"none\" style=\"width: 100%;\" controls=\"controls\"><source type=\"audio\/mpeg\" src=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities373.mp3?_=1\" \/><a href=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities373.mp3\">https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities373.mp3<\/a><\/audio><\/div><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_links_mp3\" style=\"margin-bottom: 1px !important;\">Podcast: <a href=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities373.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_pinw\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Play in new window\" onclick=\"return powerpress_pinw('https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?powerpress_pinw=44486-podcast');\" rel=\"nofollow\">Play in new window<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities373.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_d\" title=\"Download\" rel=\"nofollow\" download=\"trinities373.mp3\">Download<\/a><\/p><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_subscribe_links\">Subscribe: <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/7FuUF9DZM3zhtN41n6RJ6l\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_spotify\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe on Spotify\" rel=\"nofollow\">Spotify<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/subscribebyemail.com\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_email\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe by Email\" rel=\"nofollow\">Email<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_rss\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe via RSS\" rel=\"nofollow\">RSS<\/a><\/p><div class=\"wp-block-image\">\n<figure class=\"alignright size-large is-resized\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1024\" height=\"546\" src=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/God-created-everything-else-1024x546.png\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-44487\" style=\"width:489px;height:auto\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/God-created-everything-else-1024x546.png 1024w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/God-created-everything-else-450x240.png 450w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/God-created-everything-else-768x409.png 768w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/God-created-everything-else-1536x818.png 1536w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/God-created-everything-else.png 1813w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1024px) 100vw, 1024px\" \/><\/figure>\n<\/div>\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">In this second part (<a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-372-book-session-identity-crisis-part-1\/\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"part 1 here (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">part 1 here<\/a>) you&#8217;ll hear<strong> the mutual interrogation portion of the EPS session<\/strong> on book <em>One God, Three Persons, Four Views<\/em>, with plenty of commentary by me and some extra relevant audio. This portion of the session contains <strong>a number of interesting exchanges<\/strong>. Among them:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li class=\"\">Hasker (via McIntosh) asks me whether my views entail that God&#8217;s spirit has failed to lead the Church into all truth (John 16:13).<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li class=\"\">Branson asks Craig how, if most ancient people lacked the concept of numerical identity, they were able to count.<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li class=\"\">Branson asks me how many saviors (or &#8220;saviors&#8221;) I think there are.<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li class=\"\">Craig asks me how I could totally miss his point in the book.<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li class=\"\">Craig asks Branson if Branson is committed to the controversial thesis of numerical sameness without identity.<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li class=\"\">I ask Craig how he can talk about a tripersonal god while also saying that &#8220;the Trinity&#8221; is a plural referring term, not referring to any one, individual thing.<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li class=\"\">I ask Craig how he could possibly show that Jesus &#8220;is God&#8221; is the <em>second<\/em>-highest use of the term &#8220;God,&#8221; where it doesn&#8217;t imply being a god.<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li class=\"\">I ask Branson whether creedal orthodoxy, rightly understood, rules in or rules out people who identify the only god with the Trinity (i.e. the triune god). <\/li>\n<\/ul>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Craig urges, as he did in <a aria-label=\"part 1 (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-372-book-session-identity-crisis-part-1\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">part 1<\/a>, <strong>that most ancient people either lacked a concept of numerical identity <\/strong>(represented in modern logics by the symbol =) <strong><em>or<\/em> at least that they did not <em>have a modern grasp of<\/em> that concept<\/strong>, so that they could explain it like <a aria-label=\"this (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/identity\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">this<\/a>. You will hear in this episode how he came to this conviction. In his view this is a simple argument by which to show that any unitarian interpretation of the New Testament (i.e. any one on which the authors hold that the unique God and the Father are one and the same), is an historical anachronism, and so needn&#8217;t be taken seriously.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>I push back <\/strong>both in the session and in the commentary here, urging via a thought-experiment and via examination of a couple of New Testament passages (John 7:41-42 and Luke 24:13-35), that <strong>ordinary ancient people <em>did <\/em>have a concept of <em>same-thing-as<\/em> or numerical identity. <\/strong>I also show, using some additional conference audio, that Craig is committed to their having that concept by the view he attributes to the authors of Scripture and to the Pre-Nicene &#8220;fathers&#8221; that God is the creator of absolutely everything else.<\/p>\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-image\">\n<figure class=\"alignleft size-large is-resized\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"869\" height=\"1024\" src=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/abe-guy_1-869x1024.png\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-44488\" style=\"width:452px;height:auto\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/abe-guy_1-869x1024.png 869w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/abe-guy_1-382x450.png 382w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/abe-guy_1-768x905.png 768w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/abe-guy_1-1304x1536.png 1304w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/abe-guy_1-1738x2048.png 1738w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/abe-guy_1.png 1811w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 869px) 100vw, 869px\" \/><\/figure>\n<\/div>\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Links for this episode:<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-372-book-session-identity-crisis-part-1\/\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"Part 1 (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">Part 1<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/www.reasonablefaith.org\/media\/reasonable-faith-podcast\/dr-craigs-health-update\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"Reasonable Faith podcast episode: Dr. Craig's Health Update (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">Reasonable Faith podcast episode: Dr. Craig&#8217;s Health Update<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Tuggy, &#8220;<a href=\"https:\/\/jat-ojs-baylor.tdl.org\/jat\/article\/view\/449\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"Antiunitarian Arguments from Divine Perfection (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">Antiunitarian Arguments from Divine Perfection<\/a>&#8220;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-248-how-trinity-theories-conflict-with-the-bible\/\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"podcast 248 \u2013 How Trinity theories conflict with the Bible (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">podcast 248 \u2013 How Trinity theories conflict with the Bible<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">McIntosh <a aria-label=\"review of Craig, God Over All and Craig, God and Abstract Objects (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/www.camcintosh.com\/about\/wp-content\/uploads\/2022\/02\/Review-Craig-God-and-Abstract-Objects.pdf\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">review of Craig, <em>God Over All<\/em> and Craig, <em>God and Abstract Objects<\/em><\/a> (<a aria-label=\"website (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/www.camcintosh.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">website<\/a>)<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=mI8qt7YBtWo&amp;list=PLvOeRtQtC0gLPGtZFMNwj65H6hpJPsl0b\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"Craig, Cadbury Lectures: &quot;God Over All&quot; (2015) playlist (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">Craig, Cadbury Lectures: &#8220;God Over All&#8221; (2015) playlist<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/andrewmbailey.com\/pvi\/\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"Papers by Peter van Inwagen (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">Papers by Peter van Inwagen<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">This week&#8217;s thinking music is &#8220;<a href=\"https:\/\/freemusicarchive.org\/music\/Jesse_Spillane\/Sky_Ship\/Jesse_Spillane_-_Sky_Ship_-_04_Cardboard_Engineering\/\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"Cardboard Engineering (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">Cardboard Engineering<\/a>&#8221; by <a href=\"https:\/\/freemusicarchive.org\/music\/Jesse_Spillane\/\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"Jesse Spillane (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">Jesse Spillane<\/a>.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Is it true that most ancients lacked the concept of numerical identity?<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":44497,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"neve_meta_sidebar":"","neve_meta_container":"","neve_meta_enable_content_width":"","neve_meta_content_width":0,"neve_meta_title_alignment":"","neve_meta_author_avatar":"","neve_post_elements_order":"","neve_meta_disable_header":"","neve_meta_disable_footer":"","neve_meta_disable_title":"","footnotes":""},"categories":[37,21,16,54,14,47,9,57,3,43,210],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-44486","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-apologetics","category-bible","category-books","category-debates","category-history","category-papers","category-philosophy","category-podcast","category-theories","category-unitarianism","category-william-lane-craig"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/44486","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=44486"}],"version-history":[{"count":5,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/44486\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":44496,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/44486\/revisions\/44496"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/44497"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=44486"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=44486"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=44486"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}