{"id":44704,"date":"2024-08-15T14:40:00","date_gmt":"2024-08-15T19:40:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?p=44704"},"modified":"2024-08-15T14:41:24","modified_gmt":"2024-08-15T19:41:24","slug":"podcast-381-mainstream-christian-theologies-in-the-year-240-what-trinitarian-apologists-dont-know","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-381-mainstream-christian-theologies-in-the-year-240-what-trinitarian-apologists-dont-know\/","title":{"rendered":"podcast 381 &#8211; Mainstream Christian Theologies in the year 240: What Trinitarian Apologists Don\u2019t Know"},"content":{"rendered":"<div class=\"powerpress_player\" id=\"powerpress_player_9794\"><audio class=\"wp-audio-shortcode\" id=\"audio-44704-1\" preload=\"none\" style=\"width: 100%;\" controls=\"controls\"><source type=\"audio\/mpeg\" src=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities381.mp3?_=1\" \/><a href=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities381.mp3\">https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities381.mp3<\/a><\/audio><\/div><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_links_mp3\" style=\"margin-bottom: 1px !important;\">Podcast: <a href=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities381.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_pinw\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Play in new window\" onclick=\"return powerpress_pinw('https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?powerpress_pinw=44704-podcast');\" rel=\"nofollow\">Play in new window<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities381.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_d\" title=\"Download\" rel=\"nofollow\" download=\"trinities381.mp3\">Download<\/a><\/p><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_subscribe_links\">Subscribe: <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/7FuUF9DZM3zhtN41n6RJ6l\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_spotify\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe on Spotify\" rel=\"nofollow\">Spotify<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/subscribebyemail.com\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_email\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe by Email\" rel=\"nofollow\">Email<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_rss\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe via RSS\" rel=\"nofollow\">RSS<\/a><\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">In videos like <a href=\"https:\/\/youtu.be\/O_2iYSyus5I?si=t9Y4LQV7eE0BAQf_\">this one<\/a> and <a href=\"https:\/\/youtu.be\/gYIBb5SDybg?si=mqNwgORdieonUJOv\">this one<\/a>, trinitarian apologists continue to push false narratives about the history of mainstream Christian theologies, like these (ordered from least to most plausible):<\/p>\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-image\">\n<figure class=\"aligncenter size-large is-resized\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1024\" height=\"525\" src=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/narratives-1-1024x525.png\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-44707\" style=\"width:499px;height:auto\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/narratives-1-1024x525.png 1024w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/narratives-1-450x231.png 450w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/narratives-1-768x394.png 768w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/narratives-1.png 1026w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1024px) 100vw, 1024px\" \/><\/figure>\n<\/div>\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-image\">\n<figure class=\"aligncenter size-full is-resized\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1024\" height=\"355\" src=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/narratives-2.png\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-44708\" style=\"width:494px;height:auto\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/narratives-2.png 1024w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/narratives-2-450x156.png 450w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/narratives-2-768x266.png 768w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1024px) 100vw, 1024px\" \/><\/figure>\n<\/div>\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">In this <strong>historical presentation, focusing on passages from Tertullian, Origen, and Novatian<\/strong>, I explain the actual early history of mainstream Christian theologies. Each of these three authors is a <strong>logos theorist<\/strong>, and I explain how they think God and the Logos (aka &#8220;the second god&#8221;) differ. &#8220;Subordinationism&#8221; is a feature, not a bug of these theologies; it is how they stay monotheistic despite positing multiple &#8220;divine&#8221; beings&#8211;only one &#8220;god&#8221; is strictly speaking a god. Each writer implies that <strong>logos theory was in their day a minority view<\/strong>; it seems that logos theories were at first popular among the &#8220;elite&#8221; and were widely rejected by other Christians. Each of these writers describes Christians who disagree with their Logos speculations. Since Harnack historians have called these <strong>Dynamic Monarchians<\/strong> and <strong>Modalistic Monarchians<\/strong>. Using the stick figures first deployed <a href=\"https:\/\/youtu.be\/s6wK-lRZP-k?si=PoDW56V56KTEKkxK\">here<\/a>, I explain the differences between these three mainstream Christian theologies, and between each of them and the <strong>trinitarian theology<\/strong> that was demanded by the mainstream starting in 381. Finally, I take a stab out outlining the actual <strong>early history of Christian theologies<\/strong>, starting with Dynamic Monarchianism and ending with the hegemony of trinitarianism. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Because of the many slides (and stick figures) <strong>I recommend the video version<\/strong>:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube\"><div class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\n<div class=\"nv-iframe-embed\"><iframe loading=\"lazy\" title=\"Dale Tuggy - Christian theologies in the year 240\" width=\"1200\" height=\"675\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/d9W_KjktIdk?feature=oembed\" frameborder=\"0\" allow=\"accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share\" referrerpolicy=\"strict-origin-when-cross-origin\" allowfullscreen><\/iframe><\/div>\n<\/div><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Thanks <\/strong>to Brandon Duke for editing the video and to Mark Cain for expertly cleaning up the lecture audio! Finally, my sincerest thanks to the tireless UK International Conference committee whose hard work made <a href=\"https:\/\/www.eventleaf.com\/e\/ucauk\">this encouraging meeting<\/a> possible. Watch the <a href=\"https:\/\/unitarianchristianalliance.org\">UCA blog<\/a> for an announcement of the next UK international conference!<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Links for this episode:<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Thomas Gaston, <em><a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/Dynamic-Monarchianism-Thomas-Edmund-Gaston\/dp\/173757831X\/\">Dynamic Monarchianism: the Earliest Christology?<\/a><\/em><\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/unitarianchristianalliance.org\">Unitarian Christian Alliance<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-281-introducing-the-unitarian-christian-alliance\/\">podcast 281 \u2013 Introducing the Unitarian Christian Alliance<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/youtu.be\/s6wK-lRZP-k?feature=shared\">Clarifying Catholic Christologies<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-270-origens-one-god\/\"><strong>podcast 270 \u2013 Origen\u2019s \u201cone God\u201d<\/strong><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/von-harnack-on-logos-theories-and-mystery\/\">von Harnack on logos theories and mystery<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/evolution-of-the-trinity-with-bill-schlegel\/\"><strong>Evolution of the Trinity \u2013 with Bill Schlegel<\/strong><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-262-the-trinity-before-nicea\/\">podcast 262 \u2013 The Trinity before Nicea?<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-image\">\n<figure class=\"alignright size-large is-resized\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1024\" height=\"501\" src=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/true-narrative-sketch-1024x501.png\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-44711\" style=\"width:487px;height:auto\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/true-narrative-sketch-1024x501.png 1024w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/true-narrative-sketch-450x220.png 450w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/true-narrative-sketch-768x376.png 768w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/true-narrative-sketch.png 1135w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1024px) 100vw, 1024px\" \/><\/figure>\n<\/div>\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/hurtado-on-the-worship-of-jesus\/\">Hurtado on the early worship of Jesus<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/craig-how-nicene-orthodoxy-rules-out-the-full-deity-of-christ\/\">Craig: how Nicene orthodoxy rules out the full deity of Christ<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/origen-on-the-challenge-to-jesus-is-god-apologists\/\">Origen on the Challenge to Jesus is God Apologists<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/trinitarian-or-unitarian-7-origen-uncensored-dale\/\">trinitarian or unitarian? 7 \u2013 Origen uncensored<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/origen-paul-and-peter-christians-worship-the-jews-god\/\">Origen, Paul, and Peter: Christians worship the Jews\u2019 god<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/rufinuss-corruption-of-origens-on-first-principles-part-1\/\"><strong>Rufinus\u2019s corruption of Origen\u2019s <em>On First Principles<\/em> \u2013 Part 1<\/strong><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/rufinuss-corruption-of-origens-on-first-principles-part-2\/\">Rufinus\u2019s corruption of Origen\u2019s On First Principles \u2013 Part 2<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-24-how-to-be-a-monotheistic-trinitarian\/\">podcast 24 \u2013 How to be a Monotheistic Trinitarian<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">This week&#8217;s thinking music is &#8220;<a href=\"https:\/\/freemusicarchive.org\/music\/anthem-of-rain\/freedom\/blood-instrumental\/\">Blood (Instrumental)<\/a>&#8221; by <a href=\"https:\/\/freemusicarchive.org\/music\/anthem-of-rain\/\">Anthem of Rain<\/a>.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Can we find trinitarians in the year 240 AD?<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":44714,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"neve_meta_sidebar":"","neve_meta_container":"","neve_meta_enable_content_width":"","neve_meta_content_width":0,"neve_meta_title_alignment":"","neve_meta_author_avatar":"","neve_post_elements_order":"","neve_meta_disable_header":"","neve_meta_disable_footer":"","neve_meta_disable_title":"","footnotes":""},"categories":[15,58,100,4,14,5,101,38,92,57,77,94,3,95,43],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-44704","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-christology","category-creeds","category-dynamic-monarchian","category-heresy-orthodoxy","category-history","category-modalism","category-modalistic-monarchian","category-monotheism","category-oneness","category-podcast","category-protestant","category-socinian","category-theories","category-uca","category-unitarianism"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/44704","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=44704"}],"version-history":[{"count":5,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/44704\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":44715,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/44704\/revisions\/44715"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/44714"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=44704"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=44704"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=44704"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}