{"id":44797,"date":"2024-12-22T18:40:07","date_gmt":"2024-12-23T00:40:07","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?p=44797"},"modified":"2024-12-22T18:40:11","modified_gmt":"2024-12-23T00:40:11","slug":"podcast-384-mainstream-christian-theologies-in-the-late-100s-early-200s-and-early-trinitarian-fools-gold","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-384-mainstream-christian-theologies-in-the-late-100s-early-200s-and-early-trinitarian-fools-gold\/","title":{"rendered":"podcast 384 &#8211; Mainstream Christian Theologies in the Late 100s &#8211; Early 200s and Early Trinitarian &#8220;Fool&#8217;s Gold&#8221;"},"content":{"rendered":"<div class=\"powerpress_player\" id=\"powerpress_player_4509\"><audio class=\"wp-audio-shortcode\" id=\"audio-44797-1\" preload=\"none\" style=\"width: 100%;\" controls=\"controls\"><source type=\"audio\/mpeg\" src=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities384.mp3?_=1\" \/><a href=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities384.mp3\">https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities384.mp3<\/a><\/audio><\/div><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_links_mp3\" style=\"margin-bottom: 1px !important;\">Podcast: <a href=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities384.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_pinw\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Play in new window\" onclick=\"return powerpress_pinw('https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?powerpress_pinw=44797-podcast');\" rel=\"nofollow\">Play in new window<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities384.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_d\" title=\"Download\" rel=\"nofollow\" download=\"trinities384.mp3\">Download<\/a><\/p><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_subscribe_links\">Subscribe: <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/7FuUF9DZM3zhtN41n6RJ6l\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_spotify\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe on Spotify\" rel=\"nofollow\">Spotify<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/subscribebyemail.com\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_email\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe by Email\" rel=\"nofollow\">Email<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_rss\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe via RSS\" rel=\"nofollow\">RSS<\/a><\/p><div class=\"wp-block-image\">\n<figure class=\"alignright size-large is-resized\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1024\" height=\"577\" src=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Fools-Gold-title-image-1024x577.png\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-44802\" style=\"width:516px;height:auto\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Fools-Gold-title-image-1024x577.png 1024w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Fools-Gold-title-image-450x254.png 450w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Fools-Gold-title-image-768x433.png 768w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Fools-Gold-title-image.png 1054w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1024px) 100vw, 1024px\" \/><\/figure>\n<\/div>\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">In this episode you&#8217;ll hear <strong>my presentation from the <a href=\"https:\/\/youtu.be\/h4pBIb9cjVg?si=gOX8pw6o4FHGtwKD\">October 2024 UCA Conference in Little Rock, Arkansas<\/a><\/strong>. In it I explain the theological landscape from the late 100s through the early 200s using the words of some writers in that era: the author of the <em>Refutation of All Heresies<\/em> (attributed by some to Hippolytus), Theodotus of Byzantium (as quoted by Epiphanius), Noetus of Smyrna and Zephyrinus (as reported in the <em>Refutation<\/em>).<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I discuss gnostic &#8220;possessionist&#8221; Christologies, <strong>Dynamic Monarchianism, Modalistic Monarchianism, and Logos Theories<\/strong>, a.k.a. unitarian subordinationism, and the <strong>fallacy<\/strong> committed by trinitarian apologists who appeal to pre-Nicene authors as being trinitarian. I then discuss the views of some &#8220;early&#8221; authors which trinitarian apologists often appeal to: <strong>Athenagoras of Athens and Melito of Sardis<\/strong>. <\/p>\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-image\">\n<figure class=\"alignright size-full is-resized\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1013\" height=\"571\" src=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Gold-or-Fools-Gold-1.png\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-44801\" style=\"width:421px;height:auto\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Gold-or-Fools-Gold-1.png 1013w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Gold-or-Fools-Gold-1-450x254.png 450w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Gold-or-Fools-Gold-1-768x433.png 768w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1013px) 100vw, 1013px\" \/><\/figure>\n<\/div>\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I show you how to refute any claim that some early author is a trinitarian using these <strong>three requirements for being trinitarian<\/strong>:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li>T1. The one God and the Trinity are one and the same.<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>T2. Each of these by himself is fully divine: Father, Son, Holy Spirit.<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>T3. None of these just is either of the others: Father, Son, Spirit.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Each and every known theologian in this period fails to have at least one<\/strong> of these requirements for being trinitarian. That is why the trinitarian &#8220;gold&#8221; projected onto these early texts by trinitarian apologists ends up being non-trinitarian &#8220;fool&#8217;s gold.&#8221;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Finally, when you realize that <strong>our surviving sources from this era are by Logos theorists<\/strong>, you may infer that most Christians in this era were Logos theorists. I explain why this is a mistake.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Here is AI-image-riddled <strong>video version<\/strong> at the UCA YouTube channel:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\"><div class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\n<div class=\"nv-iframe-embed\"><iframe loading=\"lazy\" title=\"Dale Tuggy - Trinitarian &quot;Fool&#039;s Gold&quot; - Mainstream Christian Theologies - Late 100&#039;s to Early 200&#039;s\" width=\"1200\" height=\"675\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/KxYtTQDo1dA?feature=oembed\" frameborder=\"0\" allow=\"accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share\" referrerpolicy=\"strict-origin-when-cross-origin\" allowfullscreen><\/iframe><\/div>\n<\/div><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Links for this episode:<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-381-mainstream-christian-theologies-in-the-year-240-what-trinitarian-apologists-dont-know\/\">podcast 381 \u2013 Mainstream Christian Theologies in the year 240: What Trinitarian Apologists Don\u2019t Know<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Video version of podcast 381: Dale Tuggy at the 2024 UK International Conference<\/p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\"><div class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\n<div class=\"nv-iframe-embed\"><iframe loading=\"lazy\" title=\"Dale Tuggy - Christian theologies in the year 240\" width=\"1200\" height=\"675\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/d9W_KjktIdk?feature=oembed\" frameborder=\"0\" allow=\"accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share\" referrerpolicy=\"strict-origin-when-cross-origin\" allowfullscreen><\/iframe><\/div>\n<\/div><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Gaston, <em><a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/Dynamic-Monarchianism-Thomas-Edmund-Gaston\/dp\/173757831X\/\">Dynamic Monarchianism: The Earliest Christology?<\/a><\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Litwa, trans., <em><a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/Refutation-Heresies-Writings-Greco-Roman-World\/dp\/0884140873\/\">Refutation of All Heresies<\/a><\/em><\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Thomas Gaston, at the 2024 UK International Conference: &#8220;Dynamic Monarchianism: The Earliest Christology&#8221;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\"><div class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\n<div class=\"nv-iframe-embed\"><iframe loading=\"lazy\" title=\"Thomas Gaston - Dynamic Monarchianism: The Earliest Christology\" width=\"1200\" height=\"675\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/UsbRKiw6Jmc?feature=oembed\" frameborder=\"0\" allow=\"accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share\" referrerpolicy=\"strict-origin-when-cross-origin\" allowfullscreen><\/iframe><\/div>\n<\/div><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Sean Finnegan at the 2024 UCA Conference in New Zealand: &#8220;An Honest Evaluation of Evidence for the Deity of Christ&#8221;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\"><div class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\n<div class=\"nv-iframe-embed\"><iframe loading=\"lazy\" title=\"Sean Finnegan - An Honest Evaluation of Evidence for the Deity of Christ\" width=\"1200\" height=\"675\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/tHsG7T0gNZw?feature=oembed\" frameborder=\"0\" allow=\"accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share\" referrerpolicy=\"strict-origin-when-cross-origin\" allowfullscreen><\/iframe><\/div>\n<\/div><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Susanne Lakin at the 2024 UCA Conference in Arkansas: &#8220;Biblical Anthropomorphism &#8211; Evidence of a Unipersonal God&#8221;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\"><div class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\n<div class=\"nv-iframe-embed\"><iframe loading=\"lazy\" title=\"Susanne Lakin - Biblical Anthropomorphism - Evidence of a Unipersonal God\" width=\"1200\" height=\"675\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/JsOBFbUcB98?feature=oembed\" frameborder=\"0\" allow=\"accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share\" referrerpolicy=\"strict-origin-when-cross-origin\" allowfullscreen><\/iframe><\/div>\n<\/div><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Sean Finnegan at the 2024 UCA Conference in Little Rock: &#8220;Isaiah 9:6 Explained: A Theophoric Approach&#8221;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\"><div class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\n<div class=\"nv-iframe-embed\"><iframe loading=\"lazy\" title=\"Sean Finnegan - Isaiah 9:6 Explained: A Theophoric Approach\" width=\"1200\" height=\"675\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/mtJxn39zPVM?feature=oembed\" frameborder=\"0\" allow=\"accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share\" referrerpolicy=\"strict-origin-when-cross-origin\" allowfullscreen><\/iframe><\/div>\n<\/div><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">This week&#8217;s thinking music is &#8220;<a href=\"https:\/\/freemusicarchive.org\/music\/anthem-of-rain\/freedom\/i-got-to-go-now-instrumental\">I Got to Go Now (Instrumental)<\/a>&#8221; by <a href=\"https:\/\/freemusicarchive.org\/music\/anthem-of-rain\/\">Anthem of Rain<\/a>.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>How you can know that no theologian in this era believed in a tripersonal God. And: what views did they hold?<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":44800,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"neve_meta_sidebar":"","neve_meta_container":"","neve_meta_enable_content_width":"","neve_meta_content_width":0,"neve_meta_title_alignment":"","neve_meta_author_avatar":"","neve_post_elements_order":"","neve_meta_disable_header":"","neve_meta_disable_footer":"","neve_meta_disable_title":"","footnotes":""},"categories":[37,16,6,100,4,14,101,9,57,7,94,3,95,43],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-44797","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-apologetics","category-books","category-complaints","category-dynamic-monarchian","category-heresy-orthodoxy","category-history","category-modalistic-monarchian","category-philosophy","category-podcast","category-quotes","category-socinian","category-theories","category-uca","category-unitarianism"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/44797","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=44797"}],"version-history":[{"count":8,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/44797\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":44808,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/44797\/revisions\/44808"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/44800"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=44797"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=44797"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=44797"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}