{"id":44838,"date":"2025-02-17T10:00:33","date_gmt":"2025-02-17T16:00:33","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?p=44838"},"modified":"2025-02-17T10:00:37","modified_gmt":"2025-02-17T16:00:37","slug":"podcast-387-yes-the-trinity-is-a-problem-part-1","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-387-yes-the-trinity-is-a-problem-part-1\/","title":{"rendered":"podcast 387 &#8211; Yes, &#8220;the Trinity&#8221; is a Problem &#8211; Part 1"},"content":{"rendered":"<div class=\"powerpress_player\" id=\"powerpress_player_1702\"><audio class=\"wp-audio-shortcode\" id=\"audio-44838-1\" preload=\"none\" style=\"width: 100%;\" controls=\"controls\"><source type=\"audio\/mpeg\" src=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities387.mp3?_=1\" \/><a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities387.mp3\">http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities387.mp3<\/a><\/audio><\/div><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_links_mp3\" style=\"margin-bottom: 1px !important;\">Podcast: <a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities387.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_pinw\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Play in new window\" onclick=\"return powerpress_pinw('https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?powerpress_pinw=44838-podcast');\" rel=\"nofollow\">Play in new window<\/a> | <a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities387.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_d\" title=\"Download\" rel=\"nofollow\" download=\"trinities387.mp3\">Download<\/a><\/p><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_subscribe_links\">Subscribe: <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/7FuUF9DZM3zhtN41n6RJ6l\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_spotify\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe on Spotify\" rel=\"nofollow\">Spotify<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/subscribebyemail.com\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_email\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe by Email\" rel=\"nofollow\">Email<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_rss\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe via RSS\" rel=\"nofollow\">RSS<\/a><\/p><div class=\"wp-block-image\">\n<figure class=\"alignright size-full is-resized\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"936\" height=\"580\" src=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/not-a-problem-they-said.png\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-44847\" style=\"width:482px;height:auto\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/not-a-problem-they-said.png 936w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/not-a-problem-they-said-450x279.png 450w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/not-a-problem-they-said-768x476.png 768w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 936px) 100vw, 936px\" \/><\/figure>\n<\/div>\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">In this episode I, a Biola University alum (B.A., Philosophy) interact with <strong><a href=\"https:\/\/youtu.be\/4iJifwhHYX4?si=VS9tO_SkAb5ojXbZ\">this video<\/a> by two current Biola University professors<\/strong>, <a href=\"https:\/\/www.biola.edu\/directory\/people\/fred-sanders\">Dr. Fred Sanders<\/a>, and <a href=\"https:\/\/www.biola.edu\/directory\/people\/sean-mcdowell\">Dr. Sean McDowell<\/a>. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Their goals are<\/strong> to show that the doctrine of the Trinity is coherent (not self-contradictory) and that it fits well with Scripture.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Issues they discuss include:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li><strong>What about the fact that the word &#8220;Trinity&#8221; is not in the Bible?<\/strong><\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>Does the Old Testament support the doctrine of the Trinity?<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>If the Father <strong>eternally generates<\/strong> the Son, does this imply that the Son is not fully divine, since he lacks the divine attribute of aseity (independent existence)?<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>If the Father is divine, the Son is divine, and the Spirit is divine, and those are truly three&#8211;none is identical to either of the others&#8211;isn&#8217;t that <strong>tritheism<\/strong>?<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>Understanding &#8220;who God is&#8221; through salvation history.<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>Biblical language about God&#8217;s &#8220;Spirit&#8221; or &#8220;spirit&#8221; or &#8220;Holy Spirit.&#8221;<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">In my commentary I point out that Dr. McDowell and Dr. Sanders are for the most part <strong>avoiding harder objections<\/strong> and issues pressed by unitarian Christians like me. When harder objections are brought up, their <strong>answers are lacking<\/strong>. In particular, the biblical problems are much, much harder then they are assuming. How does the Bible teach that the one God is the Trinity when it seems to clearly teach that the one God is the Father, the one formerly called &#8220;Yahweh&#8221;? How does the Bible teach the full deity of Jesus when it straightforwardly presents him as having limitations which God must lack? <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">They also ignore that <strong>different, incompatible doctrines<\/strong>, such as one-self and three-self Trinity theories all offer the same traditional language&#8211;thus, repeating that language does not suffice to clearly communicate a trinitarian theology. Their talk of &#8220;the doctrine of the Trinity&#8221; mistakenly presupposes that theologians loyal to trinitarian traditions are teaching the same things. <a href=\"https:\/\/plato.stanford.edu\/entries\/trinity\/\">They are not<\/a>. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">In the next episode I interact with the remainder of their presentation. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Links for this episode:<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-252-fred-sanders-on-seeing-the-trinity-in-scripture-and-his-secret\/\"><strong>podcast 252 \u2013 Fred Sanders on Seeing the Trinity in Scripture, and his Secret<\/strong><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-193-review-of-sanderss-the-deep-things-of-god-part-2\/\">podcast 193 \u2013 Review of Sanders\u2019s The Deep Things of God \u2013 Part 2<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-192-review-of-sanderss-the-deep-things-of-god-part-1\/\">podcast 192 \u2013 Review of Sanders\u2019s The Deep Things of God \u2013 Part 1<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-194-god-one-person-or-three-sanders-vs-buzzard-debate\/\">podcast 194 \u2013 God: One Person or Three? Sanders vs. Buzzard debate<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Dustin Smith&#8217;s <a href=\"https:\/\/biblicalunitarianpodcast.podbean.com\/\">The Biblical Unitarian Podcast<\/a><\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Sean Finnegan&#8217;s <a href=\"https:\/\/restitutio.org\/get-podcast\/\">Restitutio Podcast<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Sanders, <em><a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/Deep-Things-God-Second-Everything\/dp\/1433556375\/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&amp;ie=UTF8&amp;qid=1504548470&amp;sr=1-2&amp;keywords=sanders%2C+the+deep+things+of+God\">The Deep Things of God: How the Trinity Changes Everything<\/a><\/em>\u00a0(2nd ed.)<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/plato.stanford.edu\/entries\/trinity\/\"><strong>Tuggy, &#8220;Trinity,&#8221; <em>Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy<\/em><\/strong><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/iep.utm.edu\/trinity\/\">Baber, &#8220;Trinity,&#8221; <em>Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy<\/em><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/youtu.be\/1SK2XHEUC9g?si=qRChV6IWi6AYWx7r\">Dustin Smith &#8211; The Plural of Majesty<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-11-tertullian-the-unitarian\/\">podcast 11 \u2013 Tertullian the unitarian \u2013 Trinities<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/andrewmbailey.com\/trinity\/Cartwright.html\">Cartwright, &#8220;On the Logical Problem of the Trinity&#8221;<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Date and Tuggy, <em><a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/Jesus-Human-Not-Divine-Debate\/dp\/B0CNJDBMYV\">Is Jesus Human and Not Divine<\/a><\/em>?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tuggy, &#8220;<a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/when-and-how-in-the-history-of-theology-did-the-triune-god-replace-the-father-as-the-only-true-god\/\">When and How in the History of Theology Did the Triune God Replace the Father as the Only True God?<\/a>&#8220;<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-330-dr-joshua-sijuwade-on-the-monarchy-of-the-father\/\">podcast 330 \u2013 Dr. Joshua Sijuwade on the monarchy of the Father<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>McIntosh, ed. &#8211; Craig vs. Hasker vs. Branson vs. Tuggy &#8211; <em><a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/Three-Persons-Four-Views-Philosophical\/dp\/1666719056\">One God, Three Persons, Four Views: A Biblical, Theological, and Philosophical Dialogue on the Doctrine of the Trinity<\/a><\/em><\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-189-the-unfinished-business-of-the-reformation\/\">podcast 189 \u2013 The unfinished business of the Reformation<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/ojs.uclouvain.be\/index.php\/theologica\/article\/view\/16583\">Craig, &#8220;Is God the Son Begotten in His Divine Nature?&#8221;<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-image\">\n<figure class=\"alignright size-large is-resized\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1024\" height=\"514\" src=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/reaction-shot-1024x514.png\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-44849\" style=\"width:544px;height:auto\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/reaction-shot-1024x514.png 1024w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/reaction-shot-450x226.png 450w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/reaction-shot-768x385.png 768w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/reaction-shot-1536x770.png 1536w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/reaction-shot.png 1944w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1024px) 100vw, 1024px\" \/><\/figure>\n<\/div>\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-248-how-trinity-theories-conflict-with-the-bible\/\"><strong>podcast 248 \u2013 How Trinity theories conflict with the Bible<\/strong><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/how-trinity-theories-conflict-with-the-new-testament\/\">How Trinity theories conflict with the New Testament<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/live\/6k-ECuZFCsA?si=3cT59HxbFdFVf6IV\">Loke-Tuggy debate: Does the NT Teach that Jesus is Truly Divine?<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/the-tuggy-brown-debate-dales-opening-statement\/\">The Tuggy-Brown debate: Dale\u2019s opening statement<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-334-who-do-you-say-i-am\/\">podcast 334 \u2013 \u201cWho do you say I am?\u201d<\/a><br \/><a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/@TheAnalyticChristian\"><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-260-how-to-argue-that-the-bible-is-trinitarian\/\">podcast 260 \u2013 How to Argue that the Bible is Trinitarian<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-384-mainstream-christian-theologies-in-the-late-100s-early-200s-and-early-trinitarian-fools-gold\/\"><strong>podcast 384 \u2013 Mainstream Christian Theologies in the Late 100s \u2013 Early 200s and Early Trinitarian \u201cFool\u2019s Gold\u201d<\/strong><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-381-mainstream-christian-theologies-in-the-year-240-what-trinitarian-apologists-dont-know\/\">podcast 381 \u2013 Mainstream Christian Theologies in the year 240: What Trinitarian Apologists Don\u2019t Know<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/trinity-an-anachronism-in-1st-3rd-centuries\/\">the concept of a triune God an anachronism in the first three centuries<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-26-pastor-sean-finnegan-on-the-holy-spirit-part-2\/\">podcast 26 \u2013 Pastor Sean Finnegan on \u201cthe Holy Spirit\u201d \u2013 Part 2<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-25-pastor-sean-finnegan-about-the-holy-spirit-part-1\/\">podcast 25 \u2013 Pastor Sean Finnegan on \u201cthe Holy Spirit\u201d \u2013 Part 1<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\"><div class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\n<div class=\"nv-iframe-embed\"><iframe loading=\"lazy\" title=\"Dale Tuggy and James White debate: &quot;Is Jesus YHWH?&quot; (best quality, with slides)\" width=\"1200\" height=\"675\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/ky2SaHscSIo?feature=oembed\" frameborder=\"0\" allow=\"accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share\" referrerpolicy=\"strict-origin-when-cross-origin\" allowfullscreen><\/iframe><\/div>\n<\/div><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-271-does-your-trinity-theory-require-relative-identity\/\">podcast 271 \u2013 Does your Trinity theory require relative identity?<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/apologetics-blind-spot-numerical-identity\/\">the apologetics blind-spot on numerical identity<\/a><\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">This week&#8217;s thinking music is &#8220;<a href=\"https:\/\/freemusicarchive.org\/music\/mr-smith\/kerplunk\/ridgeway-drive\/\">Ridgeway Drive<\/a>&#8221; by <a href=\"https:\/\/freemusicarchive.org\/music\/mr-smith\/\">Mr. Smith<\/a>.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Sometimes easy answers are . . . too easy.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":44847,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"neve_meta_sidebar":"","neve_meta_container":"","neve_meta_enable_content_width":"","neve_meta_content_width":0,"neve_meta_title_alignment":"","neve_meta_author_avatar":"","neve_post_elements_order":"","neve_meta_disable_header":"","neve_meta_disable_footer":"","neve_meta_disable_title":"","footnotes":""},"categories":[37,16,109,15,6,58,75,100,4,14,55,33,56,110,5,101,38,9,57,77,3,43,210],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-44838","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-apologetics","category-books","category-challenge","category-christology","category-complaints","category-creeds","category-divine-attributes","category-dynamic-monarchian","category-heresy-orthodoxy","category-history","category-holy-spirit","category-incarnation","category-interview","category-james-white","category-modalism","category-modalistic-monarchian","category-monotheism","category-philosophy","category-podcast","category-protestant","category-theories","category-unitarianism","category-william-lane-craig"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/44838","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=44838"}],"version-history":[{"count":10,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/44838\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":44859,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/44838\/revisions\/44859"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/44847"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=44838"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=44838"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=44838"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}