{"id":44861,"date":"2025-02-22T13:36:57","date_gmt":"2025-02-22T19:36:57","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?p=44861"},"modified":"2025-02-22T13:36:59","modified_gmt":"2025-02-22T19:36:59","slug":"podcast-388-yes-the-trinity-is-a-problem-part-2","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-388-yes-the-trinity-is-a-problem-part-2\/","title":{"rendered":"podcast 388 &#8211; Yes, &#8220;the Trinity&#8221; is a Problem &#8211; Part 2"},"content":{"rendered":"<div class=\"powerpress_player\" id=\"powerpress_player_6601\"><audio class=\"wp-audio-shortcode\" id=\"audio-44861-1\" preload=\"none\" style=\"width: 100%;\" controls=\"controls\"><source type=\"audio\/mpeg\" src=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities388.mp3?_=1\" \/><a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities388.mp3\">http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities388.mp3<\/a><\/audio><\/div><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_links_mp3\" style=\"margin-bottom: 1px !important;\">Podcast: <a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities388.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_pinw\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Play in new window\" onclick=\"return powerpress_pinw('https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?powerpress_pinw=44861-podcast');\" rel=\"nofollow\">Play in new window<\/a> | <a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities388.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_d\" title=\"Download\" rel=\"nofollow\" download=\"trinities388.mp3\">Download<\/a><\/p><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_subscribe_links\">Subscribe: <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/7FuUF9DZM3zhtN41n6RJ6l\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_spotify\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe on Spotify\" rel=\"nofollow\">Spotify<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/subscribebyemail.com\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_email\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe by Email\" rel=\"nofollow\">Email<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_rss\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe via RSS\" rel=\"nofollow\">RSS<\/a><\/p><div class=\"wp-block-image\">\n<figure class=\"alignleft size-large is-resized\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1024\" height=\"397\" src=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/A-Problem-actually-many-problems-1024x397.png\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-44863\" style=\"width:591px;height:auto\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/A-Problem-actually-many-problems-1024x397.png 1024w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/A-Problem-actually-many-problems-450x175.png 450w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/A-Problem-actually-many-problems-768x298.png 768w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/A-Problem-actually-many-problems-1536x596.png 1536w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/A-Problem-actually-many-problems-2048x795.png 2048w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1024px) 100vw, 1024px\" \/><\/figure>\n<\/div>\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">In this second part (<a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-387-yes-the-trinity-is-a-problem-part-1\/\">part 1 here<\/a>) I interact with the rest of <a href=\"https:\/\/youtu.be\/4iJifwhHYX4?si=VS9tO_SkAb5ojXbZ\">this discussion<\/a> between Dr. Sean McDowell and Dr. Fred Sanders. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I do register some significant agreements with them, but on the whole, <strong>my criticism<\/strong> from last time stands: their apologetic defense of &#8220;the doctrine of the Trinity&#8221; is not anywhere near sufficient to rebut or refute the arguments presented by today&#8217;s unitarian Christians. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I also explain some <strong>historical problems<\/strong> with various things they&#8217;re saying. Detailed knowledge of early Christian theologies and Christologies disrupts a number of common trinitarian narratives and assumptions. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Questions addressed include:<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li>Was the doctrine of the <strong>Trinity copied from pagan religions <\/strong>and\/or Greek philosophy?<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>Can one read pretty much <strong>any pre-Nicene written<\/strong> source and find that the author is trinitarian?<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>Was the doctrine of the Trinity established at the council at <strong>Nicea <\/strong>in 325?<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>Was new creedal language produced by the council at Nicea a breakthrough in theological <strong>clarity<\/strong>?<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>Why is there <strong>no clear &#8220;Trinity passage&#8221;<\/strong> anywhere in the Bible? And is this actually a <em>good <\/em>thing?<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">At the end I offer to help. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\"><div class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\n<div class=\"nv-iframe-embed\"><iframe loading=\"lazy\" title=\"The Six Stages of Trinitarian Commitment - by Dr. Dale Tuggy\" width=\"1200\" height=\"675\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/XEr7Em9wkV8?feature=oembed\" frameborder=\"0\" allow=\"accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share\" referrerpolicy=\"strict-origin-when-cross-origin\" allowfullscreen><\/iframe><\/div>\n<\/div><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Links for this episode:<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Tuggy, &#8220;<a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/when-and-how-in-the-history-of-theology-did-the-triune-god-replace-the-father-as-the-only-true-god\/\">When and How in the History of Theology Did the Triune God Replace the Father as the Only True God?<\/a>&#8220;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-115-the-aborted-council-at-serdica-in-343\/\">podcast 115 \u2013 the aborted council at Serdica in 343<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-114-the-recycled-creed\/\">podcast 114 \u2013 the recycled creed (342-359)<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-113-the-council-at-antioch-in-341\/\"><strong>podcast 113 \u2013 the council at Antioch in 341<\/strong><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-31-william-hasker-on-the-arian-controversy\/\">podcast 31 \u2013 Dr. William Hasker on the \u201cArian\u201d Controversy<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-30-the-council-of-nicea\/\"><strong>podcast 30 \u2013 The Council of Nicea<\/strong><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-29-arius\/\">podcast 29 \u2013 Arius<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Prestige, <em><a href=\"https:\/\/archive.org\/details\/godinpatristicth0000glpr\">God in Patristic thought<\/a><\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\"><div class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\n<div class=\"nv-iframe-embed\"><iframe loading=\"lazy\" title=\"Dale Tuggy - Trinitarian &quot;Fool&#039;s Gold&quot; - Mainstream Christian Theologies - Late 100&#039;s to Early 200&#039;s\" width=\"1200\" height=\"675\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/KxYtTQDo1dA?feature=oembed\" frameborder=\"0\" allow=\"accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share\" referrerpolicy=\"strict-origin-when-cross-origin\" allowfullscreen><\/iframe><\/div>\n<\/div><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-270-origens-one-god\/\">podcast 270 \u2013 Origen\u2019s \u201cone God\u201d<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tuggy, <em><a href=\"https:\/\/www.what-is-the-trinity.com\/\">What is the Trinity?<\/a><\/em><\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?s=10+steps+towards\">10 steps towards getting less confused about the Trinity\u00a0<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-image\">\n<figure class=\"alignright size-large is-resized\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1024\" height=\"568\" src=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/1-god-or-3-1024x568.png\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-44864\" style=\"width:540px;height:auto\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/1-god-or-3-1024x568.png 1024w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/1-god-or-3-450x250.png 450w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/1-god-or-3-768x426.png 768w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/1-god-or-3.png 1175w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1024px) 100vw, 1024px\" \/><\/figure>\n<\/div>\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Clarke, <em><a href=\"https:\/\/archive.org\/details\/scripturedoctrin00clar\/page\/n11\/mode\/2up\">The Scripture-Doctrine of the Trinity<\/a><\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Biddle, <em><a href=\"https:\/\/archive.org\/details\/bim_early-english-books-1641-1700_the-apostolical-and-true_biddle-john_1691\">The Apostolical and True Opinion Concerning the Holy Trinity<\/a><\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-348-novatians-on-the-trinity-part-2-two-thieves-and-three-arguments\/\"><strong>podcast 348 \u2013 Novatian\u2019s On the Trinity \u2013 Part 2 \u2013 Two Thieves and Three Arguments<\/strong><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Hanson, <em><a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/Search-Christian-Doctrine-God-Controversy\/dp\/080103146X\">The Search for the Christian Doctrine of God<\/a><\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong><a href=\"https:\/\/unitarianchristianalliance.org\/\">Unitarian Christian Alliance<\/a><\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/coggc.org\/\">Church of God General Conference<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/stfi.org\/\">Spirit and Truth<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-357-seminary-student-takes-trinity-class-becomes-unitarian-part-2\/\">podcast 357 \u2013 Seminary student takes Trinity class, becomes unitarian \u2013 Part 2<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-356-seminary-student-takes-trinity-class-becomes-unitarian-part-1\/\"><strong>podcast 356 \u2013 Seminary student takes Trinity class, becomes unitarian \u2013 Part 1<\/strong><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\"><div class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\n<div class=\"nv-iframe-embed\"><iframe loading=\"lazy\" title=\"God Is Not A Trinity.\" width=\"1200\" height=\"675\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/4OgtkJe5AyI?feature=oembed\" frameborder=\"0\" allow=\"accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share\" referrerpolicy=\"strict-origin-when-cross-origin\" allowfullscreen><\/iframe><\/div>\n<\/div><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Dustin Smith\u2019s&nbsp;<a href=\"https:\/\/biblicalunitarianpodcast.podbean.com\/\">The Biblical Unitarian Podcast<\/a><\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Sean Finnegan\u2019s&nbsp;<a href=\"https:\/\/restitutio.org\/get-podcast\/\">Restitutio Podcast<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>McIntosh, ed. \u2013 Craig vs. Hasker vs. Branson vs. Tuggy \u2013\u00a0<em><a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/Three-Persons-Four-Views-Philosophical\/dp\/1666719056\">One God, Three Persons, Four Views: A Biblical, Theological, and Philosophical Dialogue on the Doctrine of the Trinity<\/a><\/em><\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">This week&#8217;s thinking music is &#8220;<a href=\"https:\/\/freemusicarchive.org\/music\/mr-smith\/fever-dreams-1\/discipline\/\">Discipline<\/a>&#8221; by <a href=\"https:\/\/freemusicarchive.org\/music\/mr-smith\/\">Mr. Smit<\/a>h.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Is &#8220;the doctrine of the Trinity&#8221; easily observed in just about any Christian source from the first three Christian centuries?<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":44863,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"neve_meta_sidebar":"","neve_meta_container":"","neve_meta_enable_content_width":"","neve_meta_content_width":0,"neve_meta_title_alignment":"","neve_meta_author_avatar":"","neve_post_elements_order":"","neve_meta_disable_header":"","neve_meta_disable_footer":"","neve_meta_disable_title":"","footnotes":""},"categories":[37,21,15,14,9,57,77,13,3,95,43],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-44861","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-apologetics","category-bible","category-christology","category-history","category-philosophy","category-podcast","category-protestant","category-theologians","category-theories","category-uca","category-unitarianism"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/44861","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=44861"}],"version-history":[{"count":6,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/44861\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":44871,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/44861\/revisions\/44871"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/44863"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=44861"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=44861"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=44861"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}