{"id":44932,"date":"2025-09-15T17:27:24","date_gmt":"2025-09-15T22:27:24","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?p=44932"},"modified":"2025-09-15T17:27:27","modified_gmt":"2025-09-15T22:27:27","slug":"podcast-393-are-you-orthodox-or-fauxthodox","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-393-are-you-orthodox-or-fauxthodox\/","title":{"rendered":"podcast 393 &#8211; Are you Orthodox or Fauxthodox?"},"content":{"rendered":"<div class=\"powerpress_player\" id=\"powerpress_player_3519\"><audio class=\"wp-audio-shortcode\" id=\"audio-44932-1\" preload=\"none\" style=\"width: 100%;\" controls=\"controls\"><source type=\"audio\/mpeg\" src=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities393.mp3?_=1\" \/><a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities393.mp3\">http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities393.mp3<\/a><\/audio><\/div><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_links_mp3\" style=\"margin-bottom: 1px !important;\">Podcast: <a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities393.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_pinw\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Play in new window\" onclick=\"return powerpress_pinw('https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?powerpress_pinw=44932-podcast');\" rel=\"nofollow\">Play in new window<\/a> | <a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities393.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_d\" title=\"Download\" rel=\"nofollow\" download=\"trinities393.mp3\">Download<\/a><\/p><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_subscribe_links\">Subscribe: <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/7FuUF9DZM3zhtN41n6RJ6l\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_spotify\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe on Spotify\" rel=\"nofollow\">Spotify<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/subscribebyemail.com\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_email\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe by Email\" rel=\"nofollow\">Email<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_rss\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe via RSS\" rel=\"nofollow\">RSS<\/a><\/p><div class=\"wp-block-image\">\n<figure class=\"alignright size-full is-resized\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"584\" height=\"564\" src=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/image-13.png\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-44935\" style=\"width:297px;height:auto\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/image-13.png 584w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/image-13-450x435.png 450w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 584px) 100vw, 584px\" \/><\/figure>\n<\/div>\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">In this lecture, given at the amazing <a href=\"https:\/\/convergefest.com\/\">Converge<\/a> event in Ohio in August of 2025, I first explain the <strong>three varieties of early Christian theologies<\/strong>, which I have also discussed <a href=\"https:\/\/youtu.be\/d9W_KjktIdk?si=LunBym6piQHyAcgF\">here<\/a>, <a href=\"https:\/\/youtu.be\/KxYtTQDo1dA?si=ODqbJyDf9gHdjBYX\">here<\/a>, and in <a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/live\/9rcImr2vwik?si=-IERXt7pkWr5dkpz\">my recent debate<\/a> with James White.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>I then explain the fully developed catholic views<\/strong> which replaced them over the years 381-681, as the &#8220;ecumenical&#8221; councils innovated in Christology and theology. Noting the enormous gap between this sort of catholic orthodoxy and what we read in the New Testament, a number of evangelical scholars in the last 40 years or so have developed what I called <strong>&#8220;Fauxthodox&#8221; language,<\/strong> which seems to be intended to be saying what orthodoxy was always asserting, but in simpler language which they argue reflects what is actually taught in the Bible. The main ones I discuss are <strong>Larry Hurtado, Richard Bauckham, and N.T. Wright.<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-image\">\n<figure class=\"alignright size-full is-resized\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"405\" height=\"598\" src=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/image-16.png\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-44938\" style=\"width:288px;height:auto\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/image-16.png 405w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/image-16-305x450.png 305w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 405px) 100vw, 405px\" \/><\/figure>\n<\/div>\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>The problems are:<\/strong> this language seems carefully calibrated to be ambiguous, it is <em>not<\/em> obviously biblical, and there is no reason to think that this language is equivalent to <strong>the official &#8220;catholic&#8221; or &#8220;orthodox&#8221; views<\/strong>, which I summarize like this:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Christ is a fully divine Person in God the Trinity who is eternally caused to exist by (but not created by) the Father (a different divine Person in God), sharing his divinity. When Incarnate Christ is one Person with two natures, a divine nature and a human nature which are unchanged by their union. He got his human nature from his mother; before that there was no more to him than his divine nature\u2014strictly, he is the divine nature. It is his human nature which suffered and died on the cross; his divine nature is incapable of either suffering or dying. Christ, in his divine nature, is incapable of doing any action which is not also the action of the Father and of the Spirit. Christ\u2019s human nature (a human-type of soul plus a human-type of body) is not a human person because, somehow, of its union with the divine nature, i.e. with the Second Person of the Trinity. Thus Christ is now \u201cman\u201d but is not a man (human person). Each nature has its own will and power of choosing, but the human will always submits to the divine one.?<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>If you want to see all my slides,<\/strong> here is the fully produced video from the UCA&#8217;s Y<a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/@UnitarianChristianAlliance\">ouTube channel:<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\"><div class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\n<div class=\"nv-iframe-embed\"><iframe loading=\"lazy\" title=\"Dale Tuggy - Orthodox or Fauxthodox - UCA at Converge 2025\" width=\"1200\" height=\"675\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/YGdekoOsRLs?feature=oembed\" frameborder=\"0\" allow=\"accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share\" referrerpolicy=\"strict-origin-when-cross-origin\" allowfullscreen><\/iframe><\/div>\n<\/div><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Links for this episode:<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-image\">\n<figure class=\"alignright size-large is-resized\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1024\" height=\"1004\" src=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/image-15-1024x1004.png\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-44937\" style=\"width:312px;height:auto\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/image-15-1024x1004.png 1024w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/image-15-450x441.png 450w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/image-15-768x753.png 768w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/image-15.png 1147w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1024px) 100vw, 1024px\" \/><\/figure>\n<\/div>\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/hans-kung-on-new-testament-theology\/\">Catholic Theologian Hans K\u00fcng on New Testament theology<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-384-mainstream-christian-theologies-in-the-late-100s-early-200s-and-early-trinitarian-fools-gold\/\"><strong>podcast 384 \u2013 Mainstream Christian Theologies in the Late 100s \u2013 Early 200s and Early Trinitarian \u201cFool\u2019s Gold\u201d<\/strong><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-381-mainstream-christian-theologies-in-the-year-240-what-trinitarian-apologists-dont-know\/\">podcast 381 \u2013 Mainstream Christian Theologies in the year 240: What Trinitarian Apologists Don\u2019t Know<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/live\/9rcImr2vwik?si=QuWeTRXdEuwAhrrA\">John 1 Is Not Trinitarian | Dale Tuggy vs James White LIVE Debate!<\/a> &#8211; (livestream: the fully edited video will be out soon on the <a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/@UnitarianChristianAlliance\">UCA&#8217;s YouTube channel<\/a>). <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/hurtado-on-the-worship-of-jesus\/\">Hurtado on the early worship of Jesus<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/larry-hurtado-on-early-christians-worship-of-jesus\/\">Larry Hurtado on early Christians\u2019 worship of Jesus<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-100-dr-larry-hurtado-on-god-in-new-testament-theology\/\"><strong>podcast 100 \u2013 Dr. Larry Hurtado on God in New Testament Theology<\/strong><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-228-buzzard-and-hurtado-on-god-and-jesus-part-1\/\">podcast 228 \u2013 Buzzard and Hurtado on God and Jesus \u2013 Part 1<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-229-buzzard-and-hurtado-on-god-and-jesus-part-2\/\">podcast 229 \u2013 Buzzard and Hurtado on God and Jesus \u2013 Part 2<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-13-on-bauckhams-bargain\/\"><strong>podcast 13 \u2013 On Bauckham\u2019s Bargain<\/strong><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-214-has-bauckham-clarified-his-divine-identity-theory-part-2\/\">podcast 214 \u2013 Has Bauckham clarified his \u201cdivine identity\u201d theory? \u2013 Part 2<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-213-has-bauckham-clarified-his-divine-identity-theory-part-1\/\">podcast 213 \u2013 Has Bauckham clarified his \u201cdivine identity\u201d theory? \u2013 Part 1<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-124-a-challenge-to-jesus-is-god-apologists\/\">podcast 124 \u2013 a challenge to \u201cJesus is God\u201d apologists<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">This week&#8217;s thinking music is &#8220;<a href=\"https:\/\/freemusicarchive.org\/music\/john-lopker\/flimflam\/soul-of-tacoma\/\">Soul of Tacoma<\/a>&#8221; by <a href=\"https:\/\/freemusicarchive.org\/music\/john-lopker\/\">LOPKERJO<\/a>.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Intending that theological language is orthodox\/catholic does not make it so.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":44939,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"neve_meta_sidebar":"","neve_meta_container":"","neve_meta_enable_content_width":"","neve_meta_content_width":0,"neve_meta_title_alignment":"","neve_meta_author_avatar":"","neve_post_elements_order":"","neve_meta_disable_header":"","neve_meta_disable_footer":"","neve_meta_disable_title":"","footnotes":""},"categories":[37,21,16,15,6,4,14,33,57,77,94,13,3],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-44932","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-apologetics","category-bible","category-books","category-christology","category-complaints","category-heresy-orthodoxy","category-history","category-incarnation","category-podcast","category-protestant","category-socinian","category-theologians","category-theories"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/44932","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=44932"}],"version-history":[{"count":7,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/44932\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":44946,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/44932\/revisions\/44946"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/44939"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=44932"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=44932"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=44932"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}