{"id":44955,"date":"2025-11-09T20:45:56","date_gmt":"2025-11-10T02:45:56","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?p=44955"},"modified":"2025-12-04T15:47:29","modified_gmt":"2025-12-04T21:47:29","slug":"podcast-394-debate-tuggy-vs-white-john-1-is-not-trinitarian-part-1","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-394-debate-tuggy-vs-white-john-1-is-not-trinitarian-part-1\/","title":{"rendered":"podcast 394 &#8211; Debate: Tuggy vs. White &#8211; John 1 is not Trinitarian &#8211; Part 1"},"content":{"rendered":"<div class=\"powerpress_player\" id=\"powerpress_player_9585\"><audio class=\"wp-audio-shortcode\" id=\"audio-44955-1\" preload=\"none\" style=\"width: 100%;\" controls=\"controls\"><source type=\"audio\/mpeg\" src=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities394.mp3?_=1\" \/><a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities394.mp3\">http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities394.mp3<\/a><\/audio><\/div><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_links_mp3\" style=\"margin-bottom: 1px !important;\">Podcast: <a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities394.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_pinw\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Play in new window\" onclick=\"return powerpress_pinw('https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?powerpress_pinw=44955-podcast');\" rel=\"nofollow\">Play in new window<\/a> | <a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities394.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_d\" title=\"Download\" rel=\"nofollow\" download=\"trinities394.mp3\">Download<\/a><\/p><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_subscribe_links\">Subscribe: <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/7FuUF9DZM3zhtN41n6RJ6l\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_spotify\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe on Spotify\" rel=\"nofollow\">Spotify<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/subscribebyemail.com\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_email\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe by Email\" rel=\"nofollow\">Email<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_rss\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe via RSS\" rel=\"nofollow\">RSS<\/a><\/p><div class=\"wp-block-image\">\n<figure class=\"alignright size-full\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"443\" height=\"486\" src=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/washington-selfie.png\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-44959\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/washington-selfie.png 443w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/washington-selfie-410x450.png 410w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 443px) 100vw, 443px\" \/><\/figure>\n<\/div>\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I make <a href=\"https:\/\/www.unitarianchristianalliance.org\/sydney-conference-registration-is-open\/\">an exciting announcement<\/a> at the start of this episode!<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">In this and the following two episodes,<strong> I present <em>and <\/em>comment on <a href=\"https:\/\/youtu.be\/3855v9tWmVo?si=jY8dGTl8ffA6O5H6\">my recent debate<\/a> with Dr. James White<\/strong>. This episode contains my opening statement and part of his. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Here is an interpretive paraphrase which summarizes the interpretation I argue for in my opening statement:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">John 1:1\u20135 The Early Career of God\u2019s Word<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">When the world was created, God\u2019s Word was with him\u2014not that \u201che\u201d was someone else. All things came into being through him; not a single thing came into being apart from God\u2019s Word. He was the source of life, a guiding light for all people. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness didn\u2019t overcome it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">1:6\u20139 Interlude: The Word Didn\u2019t (Fully) Arrive in the Great Prophet John the Baptist<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">God sent a man named John [the Baptist], who came as a witness to testify to that light, so that all might trust in God through his Word. John came to testify to the light but wasn\u2019t himself the Light. The True Light which enlightens everyone was yet to come.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">1:10\u201313 The Further (Pre-Jesus) \u000bCareer of God\u2019s Word<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">God\u2019s Word was in the world, which came into being through him, yet the world didn\u2019t know him. He came to his own people, the Jews, but they didn&#8217;t fully accept him. Of course, he enabled those who received him, trusting him, to become God\u2019s children, born of God, not merely of human blood, will, or flesh.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">1:14\u201316 God\u2019s Word Arrives Fully in the Man Jesus<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Then God\u2019s Word became a man and lived among us. And we\u2019ve seen Jesus\u2019 glory, that of the unique Son of the Father, one who is full of grace and truth.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">1:17\u201318 \u2013 Jesus is an Even Greater Revealer of God than the Great Prophets John and Moses<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">(John the Baptist testified to him: \u201cIt was about him that I said, \u2018The one coming after me surpasses me, because all along he\u2019s out-ranked me.\u2019 \u201d)<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">All of us have benefitted from Jesus\u2019 fullness, grace on top of grace. God gave us the law through Moses, but now he\u2019s given us grace and truth through Jesus the Messiah. You can\u2019t see God, but his unique Son who\u2019s close to his heart has shown him to us.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">If you don&#8217;t want to <a href=\"https:\/\/1drv.ms\/b\/c\/b2426e01a4018ff5\/EVlnKd3OTP9Dg9jS79PoQS8BFwuyGtay6O6S0_qdYPMZbw?e=pdGY6S\">download all of <strong>my opening statement slides<\/strong><\/a>, the following images should be enough to help you follow my opening statement in this audio version.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1024\" height=\"509\" src=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/slide-1-1024x509.png\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-44960\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/slide-1-1024x509.png 1024w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/slide-1-450x224.png 450w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/slide-1-768x382.png 768w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/slide-1.png 1513w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1024px) 100vw, 1024px\" \/><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1024\" height=\"491\" src=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/slide-2-interps-1024x491.png\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-44961\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/slide-2-interps-1024x491.png 1024w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/slide-2-interps-450x216.png 450w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/slide-2-interps-768x368.png 768w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/slide-2-interps.png 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1024px) 100vw, 1024px\" \/><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1024\" height=\"581\" src=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/slide-4-4-ancient-options-1024x581.png\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-44963\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/slide-4-4-ancient-options-1024x581.png 1024w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/slide-4-4-ancient-options-450x255.png 450w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/slide-4-4-ancient-options-768x435.png 768w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/slide-4-4-ancient-options.png 1478w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1024px) 100vw, 1024px\" \/><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1024\" height=\"557\" src=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/slide-5-what-is-the-word-1024x557.png\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-44964\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/slide-5-what-is-the-word-1024x557.png 1024w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/slide-5-what-is-the-word-450x245.png 450w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/slide-5-what-is-the-word-768x418.png 768w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/slide-5-what-is-the-word.png 1488w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1024px) 100vw, 1024px\" \/><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1024\" height=\"552\" src=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/slide-6-1024x552.png\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-44965\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/slide-6-1024x552.png 1024w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/slide-6-450x243.png 450w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/slide-6-768x414.png 768w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/slide-6.png 1505w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1024px) 100vw, 1024px\" \/><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1024\" height=\"665\" src=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/slide-7--1024x665.png\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-44966\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/slide-7--1024x665.png 1024w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/slide-7--450x292.png 450w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/slide-7--768x499.png 768w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/slide-7-.png 1351w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1024px) 100vw, 1024px\" \/><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Links for this episode:<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/how-john-1-was-intelligible-in-the-first-century\/\">How John 1 was intelligible in the first century<\/a><\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-image\">\n<figure class=\"alignright size-large is-resized\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"498\" height=\"1024\" src=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/the-debate-t-shirt-498x1024.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-44967\" style=\"width:306px;height:auto\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/the-debate-t-shirt-498x1024.jpg 498w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/the-debate-t-shirt-219x450.jpg 219w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/the-debate-t-shirt-768x1578.jpg 768w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/the-debate-t-shirt-747x1536.jpg 747w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/the-debate-t-shirt-997x2048.jpg 997w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/the-debate-t-shirt-scaled.jpg 1246w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 498px) 100vw, 498px\" \/><\/figure>\n<\/div>\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=nb4TogqyTrw&amp;t=1066s\">Dale Tuggy &#8211; What John 1 Meant (UCA Conference 2021)<\/a> (<a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-338-what-john-1-meant\/\">podcast<\/a>)<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">the host of the debate: <a href=\"https:\/\/www.crbctullahoma.org\/\">Covenant Reformed Baptist Church<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/@TheApologeticDog\">Jeremiah Nortier&#8217;s Apologetics Dog channel<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/www.biblegateway.com\/passage\/?search=Matthew%2016%3A13-20&amp;version=NIV\">Matthew 16:13-20<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/www.merriam-webster.com\/dictionary\/anachronism\">anachronism<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=KQLfgaUoQCw&amp;t=55s\">St. Patrick&#8217;s Bad Analogies [for the Trinity]<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/Dynamic-Monarchianism-Thomas-Edmund-Gaston\/dp\/173757831X\">Gaston, <em>Dynamic Monarchianism: The Earliest Christology?<\/em><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-259-who-is-the-one-creator-part-2\/\">podcast 259 \u2013 Who is the one Creator? \u2013 Part 2<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-258-who-is-the-one-creator-part-1\/\">podcast 258 \u2013 Who is the one Creator? \u2013 Part 1<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/john-a-t-robinson-on-the-word-of-john-1\/\">John A. T. Robinson on \u201cthe Word\u201d of John 1<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/debating-john-1-eusebius-vs-marcellus\/\">Debating John 1: Eusebius vs. Marcellus<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/www.biblegateway.com\/passage\/?search=John%2012%3A48&amp;version=NRSVUE\">John 12:48 &#8211; Jesus personifies God&#8217;s word (as someone else)<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/www.biblegateway.com\/passage\/?search=Revelation%2019%3A11-16&amp;version=NRSVUE\">Jesus Christ as &#8220;The Word of God&#8221; in Revelation 19:11-16<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/Search-Christian-Doctrine-God-Controversy\/dp\/080103146X\">Hanson, <em>The Search for the Christian Doctrine of God<\/em><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/do-the-gospels-disagree-about-jesus-and-god-part-1-three-options\/\">Do the Gospels disagree about Jesus and God? Part 1 \u2013 Three Options<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">our previous debate: <a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=ky2SaHscSIo&amp;t=1643s\">Dale Tuggy and James White debate: &#8220;Is Jesus YHWH?&#8221; (best quality, with slides)<\/a><a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/@UnitarianChristianAlliance\"><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">This week&#8217;s thinking music is &#8220;<a href=\"https:\/\/freemusicarchive.org\/music\/Pipe_Choir\/SGONS_Instrumentals\/Pipe_Gemini_Instrumental\/\">Gemini Instrumental<\/a>&#8221; by <a href=\"https:\/\/freemusicarchive.org\/music\/Pipe_Choir\/\">Pipe Choir<\/a>.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Commenting on my recent debate with James White &#8211; part 1 of 3.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":44968,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"neve_meta_sidebar":"","neve_meta_container":"","neve_meta_enable_content_width":"","neve_meta_content_width":0,"neve_meta_title_alignment":"","neve_meta_author_avatar":"","neve_post_elements_order":"","neve_meta_disable_header":"","neve_meta_disable_footer":"","neve_meta_disable_title":"","footnotes":""},"categories":[37,21,15,54,89,14,33,110,57,77,3,43],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-44955","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-apologetics","category-bible","category-christology","category-debates","category-events","category-history","category-incarnation","category-james-white","category-podcast","category-protestant","category-theories","category-unitarianism"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/44955","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=44955"}],"version-history":[{"count":5,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/44955\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":45033,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/44955\/revisions\/45033"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/44968"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=44955"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=44955"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=44955"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}