{"id":44972,"date":"2025-11-15T14:31:12","date_gmt":"2025-11-15T20:31:12","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?p=44972"},"modified":"2025-11-15T14:31:15","modified_gmt":"2025-11-15T20:31:15","slug":"podcast-395-debate-tuggy-vs-white-john-1-is-not-trinitarian-part-2","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-395-debate-tuggy-vs-white-john-1-is-not-trinitarian-part-2\/","title":{"rendered":"podcast 395 &#8211; Debate: Tuggy vs. White &#8211; John 1 is not Trinitarian &#8211; Part 2"},"content":{"rendered":"<div class=\"powerpress_player\" id=\"powerpress_player_6830\"><audio class=\"wp-audio-shortcode\" id=\"audio-44972-1\" preload=\"none\" style=\"width: 100%;\" controls=\"controls\"><source type=\"audio\/mpeg\" src=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities395.mp3?_=1\" \/><a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities395.mp3\">http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities395.mp3<\/a><\/audio><\/div><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_links_mp3\" style=\"margin-bottom: 1px !important;\">Podcast: <a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities395.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_pinw\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Play in new window\" onclick=\"return powerpress_pinw('https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?powerpress_pinw=44972-podcast');\" rel=\"nofollow\">Play in new window<\/a> | <a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities395.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_d\" title=\"Download\" rel=\"nofollow\" download=\"trinities395.mp3\">Download<\/a><\/p><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_subscribe_links\">Subscribe: <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/7FuUF9DZM3zhtN41n6RJ6l\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_spotify\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe on Spotify\" rel=\"nofollow\">Spotify<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/subscribebyemail.com\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_email\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe by Email\" rel=\"nofollow\">Email<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_rss\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe via RSS\" rel=\"nofollow\">RSS<\/a><\/p><div class=\"wp-block-image\">\n<figure class=\"alignright size-large is-resized\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1024\" height=\"346\" src=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Tuggy-v-White-2025-1024x346.png\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-44979\" style=\"width:510px;height:auto\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Tuggy-v-White-2025-1024x346.png 1024w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Tuggy-v-White-2025-450x152.png 450w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Tuggy-v-White-2025-768x260.png 768w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Tuggy-v-White-2025.png 1026w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1024px) 100vw, 1024px\" \/><\/figure>\n<\/div>\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">In this second of three episodes, we&#8217;ll review the rest of Dr. White&#8217;s opening statement and <strong>the two rebuttals<\/strong>. In several cases I push the discussion past what we were able to do in the confines of the debate.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Topics covered include:<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li>White&#8217;s claim that <strong>the correct text of John 1:18<\/strong> is &#8220;unique God&#8221; rather than &#8220;unique Son&#8221; and how his interpretation but not mine requires a decision about the correct text here<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>White&#8217;s claim that the words <em>ho on<\/em> in John 1:18 support his interpretation<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>White&#8217;s claim that the author uses the past imperfect tense of &#8220;is&#8221; to communicate the <strong>timeless existence<\/strong> of the Word<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-image\">\n<figure class=\"alignleft size-large is-resized\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1024\" height=\"655\" src=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/How-Old-1024x655.png\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-44977\" style=\"width:433px;height:auto\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/How-Old-1024x655.png 1024w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/How-Old-450x288.png 450w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/How-Old-768x491.png 768w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/How-Old.png 1038w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1024px) 100vw, 1024px\" \/><\/figure>\n<\/div>\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li>White&#8217;s inability to understand <strong>what it could mean for God&#8217;s word to be embodied in the man Jesus<\/strong><\/li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong>White&#8217;s many misunderstandings<\/strong> of the interpretation of John 1 I argued for in my opening statement and why this made the debate less useful for the audience.<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>Whether the opening of<strong> 1 John 1 <\/strong>supports White&#8217;s interpretation of John 1 or mine<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>Why I spent so much time discussing 2nd-3rd c. interpretation of John 1 in my opening.<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>White&#8217;s convenient skepticism about early Christian theologies.<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>The misguided idea that competence in New Testament Greek is sufficient to reveal the correct interpretation of John 1.<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>White&#8217;s appeal to John 17:5 as obviously presupposing Jesus literal pre-human existence.<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>How something which isn&#8217;t literally a self can be said to be with (<em>pros<\/em>) God. <\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>What is meant by &#8220;the beginning&#8221; in John 1:1.<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/jesuss-argument-in-john-10\/\"><strong>Jesus\u2019s argument in John 10<\/strong><\/a><\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>White&#8217;s neglect of the misunderstanding motif in the fourth Gospel<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>My argument (below) that <strong>White&#8217;s interpretation logically implies that there are two gods<\/strong>, and so should be rejected. <\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>whether in the Bible God exists timelessly or at all times<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>White&#8217;s irrelevant <em>ad hominem<\/em> that I only have ever &#8220;assumed unitarianism.&#8221;<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Here&#8217;s the argument<\/strong> which I gave against White&#8217;s interpretation of John 1 which I give in my rebuttal. The point is that White is committed to 1-3 and that 4 is true by the definition of &#8220;divine essence.&#8221; The rest follows. My response is to deny premise 2. What is White&#8217;s response?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<ol class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li>The Father has the divine essence. (assumed in Jn 1:1b)<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>The Son has the divine essence. (Jn 1:1c, since Word = Son)<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>The Father ? the Son. (Jn 1:1b, since Father &amp; Word differ and Word = Son)<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>To have the divine essence is to be a god. (true by the definition of \u201cdivine essence\u201d)<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>The Father is a god. (1, 4)<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>The Son is a god. (2, 4)<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>There are (at least) two gods. (3, 5, 6)<\/li>\n<\/ol>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">(Note: on my debate slide there was a typo at the end of the last line &#8211; it cited 7 not line 6.)<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Links for this episode:<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/brentnongbri.com\/\">Brent Nongbri&#8217;s blog Variant Readings<\/a> (<a href=\"https:\/\/brentnongbri.com\/open-access-articles\/\">articles<\/a>)<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><em><a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/Gods-Library-Archaeology-Christian-Manuscripts\/dp\/0300248601\">God&#8217;s Library: The Archaeology of the Earliest Christian Manuscripts<\/a><\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/brentnongbri.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2020\/01\/nongbri-pbodmer-xiv-xv-jbl-2016-offprint.pdf\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">\u201cReconsidering the Place of Papyrus Bodmer XIV-XV (<strong>P75<\/strong>) in the Textual Criticism of the New Testament,\u201d\u00a0<em>Journal of Biblical Literature<\/em>\u00a0135 (2016), 405-437.<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">[on <strong>P66<\/strong>:] <a href=\"https:\/\/www.e-periodica.ch\/cntmng?pid=mhl-001:2014:71::139\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">\u201cThe Limits of Palaeographic Dating of Literary Papyri: Some Observations on the Date and Provenance of P.Bodmer II,\u201d\u00a0<em>Museum Helveticum<\/em>\u00a071 (2014), 1-35.<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-62-dr-dustin-smith-on-the-preexistence-of-jesus-in-the-gospel-of-john\/\">podcast 62 \u2013 Dr. Dustin Smith on the preexistence of Jesus in the gospel of John<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-61-dr-dustin-smith-on-preexistence-in-ancient-jewish-thought\/\">podcast 61 \u2013 Dr. Dustin Smith on preexistence in ancient Jewish thought<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">This week\u2019s thinking music is \u201c<a href=\"https:\/\/freemusicarchive.org\/music\/Pipe_Choir\/SGONS_Instrumentals\/Pipe_Gemini_Instrumental\/\">Gemini Instrumental<\/a>\u201d by&nbsp;<a href=\"https:\/\/freemusicarchive.org\/music\/Pipe_Choir\/\">Pipe Choir<\/a>.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\"><div class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\n<div class=\"nv-iframe-embed\"><iframe loading=\"lazy\" title=\"Will Barlow - The &quot;Throne Room Problem&quot; - Responding to Trinitarian Claims about John 12:41\" width=\"1200\" height=\"675\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/h4pBIb9cjVg?feature=oembed\" frameborder=\"0\" allow=\"accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share\" referrerpolicy=\"strict-origin-when-cross-origin\" allowfullscreen><\/iframe><\/div>\n<\/div><\/figure>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Rebuttal times, with abundant commentary.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":44980,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"neve_meta_sidebar":"","neve_meta_container":"","neve_meta_enable_content_width":"","neve_meta_content_width":0,"neve_meta_title_alignment":"","neve_meta_author_avatar":"","neve_post_elements_order":"","neve_meta_disable_header":"","neve_meta_disable_footer":"","neve_meta_disable_title":"","footnotes":""},"categories":[37,21,15,6,54,75,100,4,14,33,110,9,57,77,107,43],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-44972","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-apologetics","category-bible","category-christology","category-complaints","category-debates","category-divine-attributes","category-dynamic-monarchian","category-heresy-orthodoxy","category-history","category-incarnation","category-james-white","category-philosophy","category-podcast","category-protestant","category-textual-criticism","category-unitarianism"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/44972","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=44972"}],"version-history":[{"count":7,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/44972\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":44982,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/44972\/revisions\/44982"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/44980"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=44972"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=44972"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=44972"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}