{"id":44983,"date":"2025-11-22T09:58:41","date_gmt":"2025-11-22T15:58:41","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?p=44983"},"modified":"2025-11-22T09:58:43","modified_gmt":"2025-11-22T15:58:43","slug":"podcast-396-debate-tuggy-vs-white-john-1-is-not-trinitarian-part-3","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-396-debate-tuggy-vs-white-john-1-is-not-trinitarian-part-3\/","title":{"rendered":"podcast 396 &#8211; Debate: Tuggy vs. White &#8211; John 1 is not Trinitarian &#8211; Part 3"},"content":{"rendered":"<div class=\"powerpress_player\" id=\"powerpress_player_4932\"><audio class=\"wp-audio-shortcode\" id=\"audio-44983-1\" preload=\"none\" style=\"width: 100%;\" controls=\"controls\"><source type=\"audio\/mpeg\" src=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities396.mp3?_=1\" \/><a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities396.mp3\">http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities396.mp3<\/a><\/audio><\/div><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_links_mp3\" style=\"margin-bottom: 1px !important;\">Podcast: <a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities396.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_pinw\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Play in new window\" onclick=\"return powerpress_pinw('https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?powerpress_pinw=44983-podcast');\" rel=\"nofollow\">Play in new window<\/a> | <a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities396.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_d\" title=\"Download\" rel=\"nofollow\" download=\"trinities396.mp3\">Download<\/a><\/p><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_subscribe_links\">Subscribe: <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/7FuUF9DZM3zhtN41n6RJ6l\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_spotify\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe on Spotify\" rel=\"nofollow\">Spotify<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/subscribebyemail.com\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_email\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe by Email\" rel=\"nofollow\">Email<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_rss\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe via RSS\" rel=\"nofollow\">RSS<\/a><\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">This final installment includes the cross-examination times, audience Q &amp; A, and our closing statements, of course with my commentary.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The <strong>cross-examination times<\/strong> are revealing. As we heard in <a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-395-debate-tuggy-vs-white-john-1-is-not-trinitarian-part-2\/\">part two<\/a>, I presented Dr. White with <strong>an argument that his interpretation of John 1 implies that there are at least two gods <\/strong>and so should be rejected. In the cross-examination here, I ask which premise he rejects and why, and he says that he rejects this one, because it assumes unitarianism, or that God can be only one Person:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">4. To have the divine essence is to be a god. (true by the definition of \u201cdivine essence\u201d)<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">But as I explain in this episode, <strong>that premise <em>doesn&#8217;t<\/em> assume unitarianism<\/strong> <em>at all<\/em>, and in fact some trinitarians <em>agree with it<\/em>, holding that the Father is a god, the Son is a god, and the Spirit is a god, but also that they&#8217;re <em>the same<\/em> god. Really, White&#8217;s favorite &#8220;assuming unitarianism&#8221; argument is just an irrelevant <em><a href=\"https:\/\/www.britannica.com\/topic\/ad-hominem\">ad hominem<\/a><\/em>. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Also, the lexicons exchange in my cross-ex time has to be heard to be believed.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I wrap this series up by explaining <strong>which side won this debate and why<\/strong>.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Here are the images I refer to in my closing statement<\/strong> which summarize three clashing narratives about Trinity doctrines: what apologists say, what theologians say, and what historians say, that is, what one learns from a deep dive into all the primary sources up to about the year 400 (in other words, the truth). (Thanks to <a href=\"https:\/\/podcast.unitarianchristianalliance.org\/\">Mark Cain<\/a> for creating these!) If you want to hear <strong>more about these pre-trinitarian theologies<\/strong> check out podcasts 381 and 384 linked below.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1024\" height=\"575\" src=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/apologists-1024x575.png\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-44985\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/apologists-1024x575.png 1024w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/apologists-450x253.png 450w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/apologists-768x432.png 768w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/apologists.png 1395w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1024px) 100vw, 1024px\" \/><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1024\" height=\"577\" src=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/theologians-1024x577.png\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-44986\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/theologians-1024x577.png 1024w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/theologians-450x254.png 450w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/theologians-768x433.png 768w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/theologians.png 1396w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1024px) 100vw, 1024px\" \/><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1024\" height=\"571\" src=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/history-1024x571.png\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-44987\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/history-1024x571.png 1024w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/history-450x251.png 450w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/history-768x428.png 768w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/history.png 1398w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1024px) 100vw, 1024px\" \/><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Links for this episode:<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li><strong>James White and fans take note: here are six places in which I <em>obviously do not<\/em> merely assume that God can only be one Person<\/strong>: <a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-189-the-unfinished-business-of-the-reformation\/\">podcast 189 \u2013 The unfinished business of the Reformation<\/a>, book chapter: &#8220;<a href=\"https:\/\/www.academia.edu\/44018047\/The_Unfinished_Business_of_the_Reformation\">The Unfinished Business of the Reformation<\/a>,&#8221; <a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-334-who-do-you-say-i-am\/\">podcast 334 \u2013 \u201cWho do you say I am?\u201d<\/a>, opening statement here: <a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-377-debate-is-jesus-yahweh-white-vs-tuggy-part-1\/\">podcast 377 \u2013 Debate: Is Jesus Yahweh? White vs. Tuggy \u2013 Part 1<\/a>, my opening statement in <a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/Three-Persons-Four-Views-Philosophical\/dp\/1666719056\">this debate book<\/a>, <a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-372-book-session-identity-crisis-part-1\/\">podcast 372 \u2013 Book Session Identity Crisis \u2013 Part 1<\/a><\/li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-384-mainstream-christian-theologies-in-the-late-100s-early-200s-and-early-trinitarian-fools-gold\/\"><strong>podcast 384 \u2013 Mainstream Christian Theologies in the Late 100s \u2013 Early 200s and Early Trinitarian \u201cFool\u2019s Gold\u201d<\/strong><\/a><\/li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-383-new-zealand-conference-church-history-q-and-a-with-sean-finnegan-and-dale-tuggy-part-2\/\">podcast 383 \u2013 New Zealand Conference Church History Q and A with Sean Finnegan and Dale Tuggy \u2013 Part 2<\/a><\/li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-382-new-zealand-conference-church-history-q-and-a-with-sean-finnegan-and-dale-tuggy-part-1\/\">podcast 382 \u2013 New Zealand Conference Church History Q and A with Sean Finnegan and Dale Tuggy \u2013 Part 1<\/a><\/li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/transfigured-podcast-interview-on-the-debate-book\/\">Transfigured podcast interview on the debate book<\/a><\/li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-381-mainstream-christian-theologies-in-the-year-240-what-trinitarian-apologists-dont-know\/\"><strong>podcast 381 \u2013 Mainstream Christian Theologies in the year 240: What Trinitarian Apologists Don\u2019t Know<\/strong><\/a><\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>This week\u2019s thinking music is \u201c<a href=\"https:\/\/freemusicarchive.org\/music\/Pipe_Choir\/SGONS_Instrumentals\/Pipe_Gemini_Instrumental\/\">Gemini Instrumental<\/a>\u201d by\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/freemusicarchive.org\/music\/Pipe_Choir\/\">Pipe Choir<\/a>.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Cross examinations, audience Q &#038; A, and closing statements, and answering the silly &#8220;assuming unitarianism&#8221; accusation once and for all. <\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":44987,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"neve_meta_sidebar":"","neve_meta_container":"","neve_meta_enable_content_width":"","neve_meta_content_width":0,"neve_meta_title_alignment":"","neve_meta_author_avatar":"","neve_post_elements_order":"","neve_meta_disable_header":"","neve_meta_disable_footer":"","neve_meta_disable_title":"","footnotes":""},"categories":[37,21,15,54,100,4,14,110,5,101,38,57,77,3,43],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-44983","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-apologetics","category-bible","category-christology","category-debates","category-dynamic-monarchian","category-heresy-orthodoxy","category-history","category-james-white","category-modalism","category-modalistic-monarchian","category-monotheism","category-podcast","category-protestant","category-theories","category-unitarianism"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/44983","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=44983"}],"version-history":[{"count":4,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/44983\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":44991,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/44983\/revisions\/44991"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/44987"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=44983"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=44983"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=44983"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}