{"id":45074,"date":"2026-05-24T18:17:48","date_gmt":"2026-05-24T23:17:48","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?p=45074"},"modified":"2026-05-24T18:17:50","modified_gmt":"2026-05-24T23:17:50","slug":"podcast-400-debate-tuggy-vs-bird-the-new-testament-jesus-is-not-divine-part-2","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-400-debate-tuggy-vs-bird-the-new-testament-jesus-is-not-divine-part-2\/","title":{"rendered":"podcast 400: Debate \u2013 Tuggy vs. Bird \u2013 The New Testament Jesus is Not Divine \u2013 Part 2"},"content":{"rendered":"<div class=\"powerpress_player\" id=\"powerpress_player_4517\"><audio class=\"wp-audio-shortcode\" id=\"audio-45074-1\" preload=\"none\" style=\"width: 100%;\" controls=\"controls\"><source type=\"audio\/mpeg\" src=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities400.mp3?_=1\" \/><a href=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities400.mp3\">https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities400.mp3<\/a><\/audio><\/div><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_links_mp3\" style=\"margin-bottom: 1px !important;\">Podcast: <a href=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities400.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_pinw\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Play in new window\" onclick=\"return powerpress_pinw('https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?powerpress_pinw=45074-podcast');\" rel=\"nofollow\">Play in new window<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities400.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_d\" title=\"Download\" rel=\"nofollow\" download=\"trinities400.mp3\">Download<\/a><\/p><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_subscribe_links\">Subscribe: <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/7FuUF9DZM3zhtN41n6RJ6l\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_spotify\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe on Spotify\" rel=\"nofollow\">Spotify<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/subscribebyemail.com\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_email\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe by Email\" rel=\"nofollow\">Email<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_rss\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe via RSS\" rel=\"nofollow\">RSS<\/a><\/p><div class=\"wp-block-image\">\n<figure class=\"alignright size-large is-resized\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"899\" height=\"1024\" src=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Bird-and-Tuggy-March-2026-Melbourne-899x1024.png\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-45076\" style=\"aspect-ratio:0.8779367325193453;width:361px;height:auto\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Bird-and-Tuggy-March-2026-Melbourne-899x1024.png 899w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Bird-and-Tuggy-March-2026-Melbourne-395x450.png 395w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Bird-and-Tuggy-March-2026-Melbourne-768x875.png 768w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Bird-and-Tuggy-March-2026-Melbourne-1349x1536.png 1349w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Bird-and-Tuggy-March-2026-Melbourne-1798x2048.png 1798w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 899px) 100vw, 899px\" \/><figcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Photo credit: Jerry Wierwille.<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n<\/div>\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">In this second episode you&#8217;ll hear the second half of <a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-399-debate-tuggy-vs-bird-the-new-testament-jesus-is-not-divine-part-1\/\">the debate<\/a>: rebuttals, open discussion time, audience questions and answers, and closing statements. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Subjects discussed include:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li>traditional, Chalcedonian views about Christ&#8217;s two natures and whether these imply one too many persons<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>the worship of Jesus<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>which claims are essential to the gospel<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>whether an immortal being can die<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>the meaning of <em>theos<\/em> (god or God) as applied to Jesus in a few New Testament passages<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>whether it is coherent to suppose anyone is both human and divine<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>John 8:58<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>Jesus&#8217;s faith in God<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>whether a Protestant should trust the &#8220;ecumenical&#8221; councils<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>practical and spiritual consequences of viewing Jesus as God&#8217;s human Messiah vs. as a Godman<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Some of the arguments for Jesus&#8217;s full deity deployed by Dr. Bird here are addressed in <a href=\"https:\/\/youtu.be\/wpdXPh-2iIc?si=n-l3xsLQXlOYZ7PX\">my UCA Conference presentation in Sydney<\/a>, about a week after this Melbourne debate. <\/p>\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-image\">\n<figure class=\"alignright size-large is-resized\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"683\" height=\"1024\" src=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Tuggy-Monotheism-Heresy-and-the-Bible-2026-683x1024.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-45080\" style=\"width:262px;height:auto\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Tuggy-Monotheism-Heresy-and-the-Bible-2026-683x1024.jpg 683w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Tuggy-Monotheism-Heresy-and-the-Bible-2026-300x450.jpg 300w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Tuggy-Monotheism-Heresy-and-the-Bible-2026-768x1151.jpg 768w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Tuggy-Monotheism-Heresy-and-the-Bible-2026.jpg 1000w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 683px) 100vw, 683px\" \/><\/figure>\n<\/div>\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And many of the topics are also covered in <strong>my newly released book <em><a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/Monotheism-Heresy-Bible-Biblical-Unitarianism\/dp\/1737578328\">Monotheism, Heresy, and the Bible<\/a><\/em><\/strong> (<a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.co.uk\/Monotheism-Heresy-Bible-Biblical-Unitarianism\/dp\/1737578328\">UK<\/a>)&#8211;such as the meanings of <em>theos<\/em> in the New Testament (ch. 1).  <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Links for this episode:<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tuggy, <em><a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/Monotheism-Heresy-Bible-Biblical-Unitarianism\/dp\/1737578328\">Monotheism, Heresy, and the Bible<\/a><\/em><\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/@earlychristianhistorywithm8684\">Dr. Michael Bird\u2019s YouTube channel<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Dr. Bird\u2019s\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/euangelion\/\">blog<\/a>,\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/substack.com\/@michaelfbird\">Substack<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=KVh8HH_ghik\">Exposing The Council of Nicaea with Dr. Dale Tuggy (UCA UK Conference 2025)<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=nb4TogqyTrw\"><strong>Dale Tuggy &#8211; What John 1 Meant (UCA Conference 2021)<\/strong><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=ky2SaHscSIo\">Dale Tuggy and James White debate: &#8220;Is Jesus YHWH?&#8221;<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=3855v9tWmVo\">Dale Tuggy vs James White | John 1 Is Not Trinitarian<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-291-from-one-god-to-two-gods-to-three-gods-john-1-and-early-christian-theologies\/\">podcast 291 \u2013 From one God to two gods to three \u201cGods\u201d \u2013 John 1 and early Christian theologies<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/bock-and-loke-on-jesuss-blasphemy-in-mark-14-part-2\/\"><strong>Bock and Loke on Jesus\u2019s \u201cblasphemy\u201d in Mark 14 \u2013 Part 2<\/strong><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/a-reading-of-philippians-25-11\/\">a reading of Philippians 2:5-11<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-227-who-should-christians-worship\/\"><strong>podcast 227 \u2013 Who Should Christians Worship?<\/strong><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/letter\/\">A letter from the Lord Jesus: About God and Me (Revised)<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\"><div class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\n<div class=\"nv-iframe-embed\"><iframe loading=\"lazy\" title=\"Dale Tuggy - Why the NT Jesus is not fully divine\" width=\"1200\" height=\"675\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/l_ZeKzAvaYg?feature=oembed\" frameborder=\"0\" allow=\"accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share\" referrerpolicy=\"strict-origin-when-cross-origin\" allowfullscreen><\/iframe><\/div>\n<\/div><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/hurtado-on-the-worship-of-jesus\/\">Hurtado on the early worship of Jesus<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/larry-hurtado-on-early-christians-worship-of-jesus\/\"><strong>Larry Hurtado on early Christians\u2019 worship of Jesus<\/strong><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-333-the-arguments-of-gods-death\/\">podcast 333 \u2013 The Arguments of \u201cGod\u2019s Death\u201d<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/kermit-zarley-on-my-lord-and-my-god\/\">Kermit Zarley on \u201cMy Lord and my God.\u201d<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/ojs.uclouvain.be\/index.php\/theologica\/article\/view\/68363\"><strong>Tuggy, &#8220;Craig&#8217;s Contradictory Christ,&#8221; <em>TheoLogica<\/em>, 2023<\/strong><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-343-craigs-contradictory-christ-part-1\/\">podcast 343 \u2013 Craig\u2019s Contradictory Christ \u2013 Part 1<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-344-craigs-contradictory-christ-part-2\/\">podcast 344 \u2013 Craig\u2019s Contradictory Christ \u2013 Part 2<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/jesuss-argument-in-john-10\/\">Jesus\u2019s argument in John 10<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-143-dr-timothy-pawls-in-defense-of-conciliar-christology-part-1\/\">podcast 143 \u2013 Dr. Timothy Pawl\u2019s In Defense of Conciliar Christology \u2013 Part 1<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-144-dr-timothy-pawls-defense-conciliar-christology-part-2\/\">podcast 144 \u2013 Dr. Timothy Pawl\u2019s In Defense of Conciliar Christology \u2013 Part 2<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-63-thomas-belsham-and-other-scholars-on-john-858\/\">podcast 63 \u2013 Thomas Belsham and other scholars on John 8:58<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-235-the-case-against-preexistence\/\">podcast 235 \u2013 The Case Against Preexistence<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.biblicalunitarian.com\/verses\/romans-9-5\">Romans 9:5 @ biblicalunitarian.com<\/a><\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-image\">\n<figure class=\"alignright size-large is-resized\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"796\" height=\"1024\" src=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/unitarian-smurf-796x1024.webp\" alt=\"Papa Smurf studying like a good &quot;Berean.&quot;\" class=\"wp-image-45077\" style=\"aspect-ratio:0.7773499623336403;width:265px;height:auto\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/unitarian-smurf-796x1024.webp 796w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/unitarian-smurf-350x450.webp 350w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/unitarian-smurf-768x987.webp 768w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/unitarian-smurf.webp 896w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 796px) 100vw, 796px\" \/><\/figure>\n<\/div>\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-146-jesus-exemplar-faith-new-testament\/\">podcast 146 \u2013 Jesus as an Exemplar of Faith in the New Testament<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/youtu.be\/h4pBIb9cjVg?si=-LRQPwOrQkDAeQGx\">Will Barlow &#8211; The &#8220;Throne Room Problem&#8221; &#8211; Responding to Trinitarian Claims about John 12:41<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/jat-ojs-baylor.tdl.org\/jat\/article\/view\/455\">Scott Williams, &#8220;Discovery of the Sixth Ecumenical Council\u2019s Trinitarian Theology: Historical, Ecclesial, and Theological Implications&#8221;<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-334-who-do-you-say-i-am\/\">podcast 334 \u2013 \u201cWho do you say I am?\u201d<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-11-tertullian-the-unitarian\/\">podcast 11 \u2013 Tertullian the unitarian<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong><a href=\"https:\/\/youtu.be\/UsbRKiw6Jmc?si=epphtnaIB_X-4tHF\">Thomas Gaston &#8211; Dynamic Monarchianism: The Earliest Christology<\/a> (book)<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">This week&#8217;s thinking music is &#8220;<a href=\"https:\/\/freemusicarchive.org\/music\/lemon-knife\/event-horizon-1\/ship-of-theseus-instrumental\/\">Ship of Theseus (Instrumental)<\/a>&#8221; by <a href=\"https:\/\/freemusicarchive.org\/music\/lemon-knife\/\">Lemon Knife<\/a>.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Rebuttals, open discussion, audience Q &#038; A, and closing statements. <\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":45075,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"neve_meta_sidebar":"","neve_meta_container":"","neve_meta_enable_content_width":"","neve_meta_content_width":0,"neve_meta_title_alignment":"","neve_meta_author_avatar":"","neve_post_elements_order":"","neve_meta_disable_header":"","neve_meta_disable_footer":"","neve_meta_disable_title":"","footnotes":""},"categories":[37,21,16,93,15,54,100,89,80,14,33,38,57,77,13,3,95,43,53],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-45074","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-apologetics","category-bible","category-books","category-christadelphian","category-christology","category-debates","category-dynamic-monarchian","category-events","category-faith","category-history","category-incarnation","category-monotheism","category-podcast","category-protestant","category-theologians","category-theories","category-uca","category-unitarianism","category-worship"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/45074","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=45074"}],"version-history":[{"count":6,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/45074\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":45084,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/45074\/revisions\/45084"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/45075"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=45074"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=45074"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=45074"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}