{"id":5121,"date":"2013-11-13T07:41:49","date_gmt":"2013-11-13T12:41:49","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?p=5121"},"modified":"2013-11-19T21:13:02","modified_gmt":"2013-11-20T02:13:02","slug":"jeremy-myers-asks-did-jesus-learn","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/jeremy-myers-asks-did-jesus-learn\/","title":{"rendered":"Jeremy Myers asks: &#8220;Did Jesus Learn?&#8221;"},"content":{"rendered":"<p><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignleft size-full wp-image-5130\" style=\"border: 11px solid white;\" alt=\"spock-illogical\" src=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/spock-illogical.jpg\" width=\"248\" height=\"300\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/spock-illogical.jpg 248w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/spock-illogical-90x109.jpg 90w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 248px) 100vw, 248px\" \/>Minister Jeremy Myers asks: <strong>&#8220;<a title=\"Did Jesus Learn?\" href=\"http:\/\/www.tillhecomes.org\/did-jesus-learn\/\" target=\"_blank\">Did Jesus Learn?<\/a>&#8220;<\/strong> (HT: <a title=\"James' blog\" href=\"http:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/exploringourmatrix\/\" target=\"_blank\">James McGrath<\/a> on Facebook)<\/p>\n<p>Great post. One favorite bit:<\/p>\n<blockquote><p>At one point in our discussion, I said, \u201cWell, it seems logical that if Jesus was fully human, then He had to learn.\u201d Their response was, \u201c<strong>I don\u2019t use logic. I just use Scripture.<\/strong>\u201d I just about broke out laughing. It seemed pretty obvious to me that logic was not being used. Ha! One guy also kept saying, \u201cI don\u2019t speculate about Scripture. I just believe what it says.\u201d<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p>Oh, &#8220;logic&#8221; (really, human reasoning ability) <em>was<\/em> being used&#8230; just not well! \ud83d\ude09<\/p>\n<p>In any case, he answers the question of the post affirmatively.<\/p>\n<p><strong>I agree with Jeremy<\/strong> that according to the New Testament, Jesus learned. Any theory about Jesus must incorporate this fact. <em>And<\/em> while he was doing that, there were <a title=\"neither the day nor the hour\" href=\"http:\/\/biblehub.com\/matthew\/24-36.htm\" target=\"_blank\">truths he did not know<\/a>.<\/p>\n<p>But that gives rise to this argument:<\/p>\n<ol>\n<li>God is eternally omniscient.<\/li>\n<li>Necessarily, a omniscient being knows all truths; there is at no time a truth that an omniscient being (who exists at that time) does not know.<\/li>\n<li>Jesus, at times, <a title=\"neither \" href=\"http:\/\/biblehub.com\/mark\/13-32.htm\" target=\"_blank\">did not know<\/a> certain truths.<\/li>\n<li>Therefore, Jesus is not eternally omniscient. (2, 3)<\/li>\n<li>Therefore, Jesus is not God.\u00a0 (1, 4)<\/li>\n<\/ol>\n<p>I would say, in evaluation of this argument:<!--more--><\/p>\n<ul>\n<li>The Bible and reason teach 1.<\/li>\n<li>2 is true by definition.<\/li>\n<li>3 is said by Jesus himself.<\/li>\n<li>And the rest follows logically.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p>The argument seems both <strong>valid and sound<\/strong>, yes? If so, we must accept the conclusion.<\/p>\n<p><strong>But many react: we <em>can&#8217;t<\/em> say 5; catholic tradition requires the denial of 5.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>In reply, some catholic Christians disagree; they think the one &#8220;God&#8221; is a group or complex being, and that Jesus is a member or part of God, so not God himself. They would agree with 5, while holding that Jesus is divine, and is called &#8220;God.&#8221; All of this is controversial, of course.<\/p>\n<p>Again, since the 19th c., a few catholics will, surprisingly, deny 1. But I&#8217;ll set that aside for now.<\/p>\n<p>Let&#8217;s <strong>see if there&#8217;s another way out<\/strong>. The only other way out, I think, is to <strong>deny 3<\/strong>\u00a0 &#8211; to go against Jesus&#8217; straightforward <a title=\"neither the day nor the hour\" href=\"http:\/\/biblehub.com\/mark\/13-32.htm\" target=\"_blank\">statement<\/a> of ignorance, and also the ignorance <a title=\"who touched me\" href=\"http:\/\/biblehub.com\/luke\/8-45.htm\" target=\"_blank\">implied<\/a> or <a title=\"grew in wisdom\" href=\"http:\/\/biblehub.com\/luke\/2-52.htm\" target=\"_blank\">presupposed<\/a> elsewhere in the gospels. But wouldn&#8217;t that make Jesus a <strong>liar<\/strong>?<\/p>\n<p>It would seem so. But, we don&#8217;t think Jesus was a liar.<\/p>\n<p>Post-Chalcedon, many think this is a better answer: Jesus had<strong> two natures, or two minds<\/strong>. In \/ via \/ or with one of those, he knew all. But the other, the human one, was, to a degree, ignorant.<\/p>\n<p>Is this view better? Laying aside the various theoretical agonies of two-natures theories, it still stands out that Jesus would be a liar. If you know all with or in one of your natures&#8230; you know all. If Jesus denied knowing something, when in fact he knew all (by or in one of his natures), that would be a lie, and seemingly wrong.<\/p>\n<p>Again, laying aside the &#8220;social&#8221; or three-self trinitarian route above, and the &#8220;kenosis&#8221; theory also, we would have a contest of <strong>Bible<\/strong> (affirming 3) <strong>vs. catholic tradition<\/strong> (denying 5).<\/p>\n<p>Bible&#8217;s got to win, in my view.<\/p>\n<p>You?<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Minister Jeremy Myers asks: &#8220;Did Jesus Learn?&#8220; (HT: James McGrath on Facebook) Great post. One favorite bit: At one point in our discussion, I said, \u201cWell, it seems logical that if Jesus was fully human, then He had to learn.\u201d Their response was, \u201cI don\u2019t use logic. I just use Scripture.\u201d I just about broke&hellip;&nbsp;<a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/jeremy-myers-asks-did-jesus-learn\/\" rel=\"bookmark\">Read More &raquo;<span class=\"screen-reader-text\">Jeremy Myers asks: &#8220;Did Jesus Learn?&#8221;<\/span><\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":5130,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"neve_meta_sidebar":"","neve_meta_container":"","neve_meta_enable_content_width":"","neve_meta_content_width":0,"neve_meta_title_alignment":"","neve_meta_author_avatar":"","neve_post_elements_order":"","neve_meta_disable_header":"","neve_meta_disable_footer":"","neve_meta_disable_title":"","footnotes":""},"categories":[37,15,33,8,9,3],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-5121","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-apologetics","category-christology","category-incarnation","category-linkage","category-philosophy","category-theories"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/5121","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=5121"}],"version-history":[{"count":1,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/5121\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":5135,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/5121\/revisions\/5135"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/5130"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=5121"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=5121"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=5121"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}