{"id":5562,"date":"2013-12-10T09:18:18","date_gmt":"2013-12-10T14:18:18","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?p=5562"},"modified":"2016-03-17T19:44:33","modified_gmt":"2016-03-17T23:44:33","slug":"podcast-17-lewis-vs-rogers-1-opening-statements","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-17-lewis-vs-rogers-1-opening-statements\/","title":{"rendered":"podcast 17 &#8211; Lewis vs. Rogers 1 &#8211; opening statements"},"content":{"rendered":"<div class=\"powerpress_player\" id=\"powerpress_player_3496\"><audio class=\"wp-audio-shortcode\" id=\"audio-5562-1\" preload=\"none\" style=\"width: 100%;\" controls=\"controls\"><source type=\"audio\/mpeg\" src=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities017.mp3?_=1\" \/><a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities017.mp3\">http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities017.mp3<\/a><\/audio><\/div><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_links_mp3\" style=\"margin-bottom: 1px !important;\">Podcast: <a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities017.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_pinw\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Play in new window\" onclick=\"return powerpress_pinw('https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?powerpress_pinw=5562-podcast');\" rel=\"nofollow\">Play in new window<\/a> | <a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities017.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_d\" title=\"Download\" rel=\"nofollow\" download=\"trinities017.mp3\">Download<\/a><\/p><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_subscribe_links\">Subscribe: <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/7FuUF9DZM3zhtN41n6RJ6l\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_spotify\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe on Spotify\" rel=\"nofollow\">Spotify<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/subscribebyemail.com\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_email\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe by Email\" rel=\"nofollow\">Email<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_rss\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe via RSS\" rel=\"nofollow\">RSS<\/a><\/p><p><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignleft size-full wp-image-5571\" src=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/ChrMus-debate-featured-pic1.png\" alt=\"ChrMus debate featured pic\" width=\"770\" height=\"345\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/ChrMus-debate-featured-pic1.png 770w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/ChrMus-debate-featured-pic1-300x134.png 300w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/ChrMus-debate-featured-pic1-420x188.png 420w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/ChrMus-debate-featured-pic1-460x206.png 460w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/ChrMus-debate-featured-pic1-90x40.png 90w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 770px) 100vw, 770px\" \/>On September 9,\u00a0 2013, Reformed Christian apologist\u00a0<a title=\"Rogers blogger profile\" href=\"http:\/\/www.blogger.com\/profile\/04311194078700307794\" target=\"_blank\">Anthony Rogers<\/a>\u00a0debated\u00a0Islamic apologist <a title=\"articles by Lewis\" href=\"http:\/\/thedebateinitiative.com\/tag\/articles-by-shadid-lewis\/\" target=\"_blank\">Shadid Lewis<\/a>. The debate question was: <strong>Are trinitarians polytheists?<\/strong> (Entire video <a title=\"whole debate in Rogers blog post\" href=\"http:\/\/www.answeringmuslims.com\/2013\/09\/here-is-debate-between-me-and-shadid.html\" target=\"_blank\">here<\/a>.)<\/p>\n<p>I think this debate is worth thinking through carefully. In this podcast series, I&#8217;m breaking up the debate into three <strong>listenable chunks. <\/strong>I&#8217;ve also slightly shortened the audio by removing some dead air, etc., but I have not deleted a single word by the two debaters. I will end with a podcast evaluating their arguments. Each episode will also have a blog post wherein I try to accurately summarize and formulate some of the arguments. This episode: <strong>opening statements<\/strong>.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rogers starts off<\/strong> with a problem for his opponent, which I think is best put as <strong>an inconsistent triad<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<ol>\n<li>Trinitarian Christians are polytheists.<\/li>\n<li>The Qur&#8217;an implies that Christians are not polytheists.<\/li>\n<li>Everything the Qur&#8217;an implies is true.<\/li>\n<\/ol>\n<p>Rogers&#8217;s argument is that is<strong> opponent is committed to<\/strong> 1 and 3. But he hasn&#8217;t noticed that he&#8217;s also committed to 2. His views, then, are inconsistent. Rogers will deny 1 (and 3), so he has no problem. But Shadid must, inconsistently, commit to all three. But from any two of them, it logically follows that the remaining claim is false. (Go ahead, try all the combinations.)<\/p>\n<p>In support of 2, Rogers offers:<\/p>\n<ul>\n<li>Muslim men can marry Christian women (<a title=\"Quran 5:5\" href=\"http:\/\/www.clearquran.com\/quran-chapter-005.html\" target=\"_blank\">5:5<\/a>), \u00a0but they can&#8217;t marry polytheistic women. (<a title=\"Quran 2:221\" href=\"http:\/\/www.clearquran.com\/quran-chapter-002.html\" target=\"_blank\">2:221<\/a>)<\/li>\n<li>Muslims can eat food prepared by Christians (5:5), but not by polytheists (<a title=\"Qur'an 6\" href=\"http:\/\/www.clearquran.com\/quran-chapter-006.html\" target=\"_blank\">6:121<\/a>).<\/li>\n<li><a title=\"Quran 22\" href=\"http:\/\/www.clearquran.com\/quran-chapter-022.html\" target=\"_blank\">22:17<\/a>; <a title=\"Quran 98\" href=\"http:\/\/www.clearquran.com\/quran-chapter-098.html\" target=\"_blank\">98:1<\/a>, 6; <a title=\"Quran 2\" href=\"http:\/\/www.clearquran.com\/quran-chapter-002.html\" target=\"_blank\">2:105<\/a>; <a title=\"Quran 5\" href=\"http:\/\/www.clearquran.com\/quran-chapter-005.html\" target=\"_blank\">5:82<\/a>; <a title=\"Quran 3\" href=\"http:\/\/www.clearquran.com\/quran-chapter-003.html\" target=\"_blank\">3:186<\/a>; and a hadith from Muhammad imply that no Christian is a polytheist.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p>On to his <strong>positive case,\u00a0Rogers<\/strong> affirms monotheism. But he adds that both Moses and Jesus, who were both monotheists, also taught that God is multipersonal, as so <em>their<\/em> monotheism implied multiple &#8220;persons&#8221; in the one God.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Argument 1<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<ol>\n<li><a title=\"Genesis 19:24\" href=\"http:\/\/www.biblegateway.com\/passage\/?search=Genesis%2019:24&amp;version=NRSV\" target=\"_blank\">Genesis 19:24<\/a> mentions two persons called &#8220;Yahweh.&#8221;<\/li>\n<li>Therefore, Genesis 19:24 implies that there are at least two persons or beings &#8220;in God.&#8221;\u00a0(This confirmed when the Targums say call the &#8220;YHWH&#8221; on earth the <em>Memra<\/em> (Word) of YHWH.)<\/li>\n<\/ol>\n<p><strong>Argument 2<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<ol>\n<li>In <a title=\"John 8\" href=\"http:\/\/www.biblegateway.com\/passage\/?search=John%208:48-59&amp;version=NRSV\" target=\"_blank\">John 8<\/a>, Jesus says &#8220;I am,&#8221; and so claims to be the eternal, divine Son who appeared to Abraham. (Also John 1,<a title=\"John 20:28\" href=\"http:\/\/www.biblegateway.com\/passage\/?search=John%2020:28&amp;version=NRSV\" target=\"_blank\"> 20:28<\/a>.)<\/li>\n<li>[But John also teaches that the Father is an eternal, divine person, who is different than the Son.]<\/li>\n<li>Therefore, John teaches that there are at least two persons &#8220;in God.&#8221;<\/li>\n<\/ol>\n<p><strong>Argument 3: <\/strong><a title=\"Matthew 28:19\" href=\"http:\/\/www.biblegateway.com\/passage\/?search=Matthew%2028:19&amp;version=NRSV\" target=\"_blank\">Matthew 28:19<\/a>\u00a0implies that the three named are distinct yet all &#8220;are&#8221; one God.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Argument 4:\u00a0<\/strong>I didn&#8217;t catch this one on the first couple listens, but Mr. Rogers<a title=\"Rogers post-debate post\" href=\"http:\/\/www.answeringmuslims.com\/2013\/09\/shadid-lewis-helps-prove-trinity.html\" target=\"_blank\"> seems to be also offering<\/a> an argument like this:<\/p>\n<ol>\n<li>Jesus and Moses taught monotheism, and &#8220;multiple persons in God.&#8221;<\/li>\n<li>[The teachings of Jesus and Moses regarding the one God are self-consistent.]<\/li>\n<li>Therefore, monotheism and &#8220;multiple persons in God&#8221; are compatible.<\/li>\n<\/ol>\n<p>On to Mr. <strong>Lewis&#8217;s opening statement<\/strong>. First, he accurately defines polytheism and trinitarianism.\u00a0Then a lot of what he says, I think, comes down to this first <strong>main argument<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<ol>\n<li>If the Trinity doctrine is true, Jesus is a god.<\/li>\n<li>If Jesus is a god, then he is a different god than his Father.<\/li>\n<li>Therefore, if the Trinity doctrine is true, then polytheism is true. (1, 2)<\/li>\n<li>Polytheism is false.<\/li>\n<li>Therefore, the Trinity doctrine is false.\u00a0 (3,4)<\/li>\n<\/ol>\n<p>3 does follow from 1-2, and 5 from 1-3. The argument is valid, and it would seem that his opponent grants 1 and 3.<\/p>\n<p>But why accept 2? He&#8217;s got a <strong>supporting argument for 2.<\/strong><\/p>\n<ol>\n<li>[For any x and y, if x differs from y, then x and y are not the same god.]<\/li>\n<li>Jesus and his Father differ.<\/li>\n<li>Therefore, Jesus and his Father are not the same god.<\/li>\n<\/ol>\n<p>To <strong>back up 2<\/strong> in the supporting argument, Lewis points out that Jesus, but <em>not<\/em> God (aka the Father) <a title=\"John 20:17\" href=\"http:\/\/biblehub.com\/john\/20-17.htm\" target=\"_blank\">has a god<\/a>, <a title=\"John 17:3\" href=\"http:\/\/biblehub.com\/john\/17-3.htm\" target=\"_blank\">calls someone else<\/a> &#8220;the only true God&#8221;, <a title=\"Mark 13:32\" href=\"http:\/\/biblehub.com\/mark\/13-32.htm\" target=\"_blank\">doesn&#8217;t know<\/a> something, <a title=\"Mark 15:34\" href=\"http:\/\/biblehub.com\/mark\/15-34.htm\" target=\"_blank\">calls out to God<\/a> from the cross,\u00a0 <a title=\"Luke 2:52\" href=\"http:\/\/biblehub.com\/luke\/2-52.htm\" target=\"_blank\">increased<\/a> in wisdom, and was <a title=\"Acts 5:30\" href=\"http:\/\/biblehub.com\/acts\/5-30.htm\" target=\"_blank\">raised and exalted by God<\/a>, where Stephen <a title=\"Acts 7:55-56\" href=\"http:\/\/biblehub.com\/acts\/7-55.htm\" target=\"_blank\">saw him<\/a> by God&#8217;s side.<\/p>\n<p>And some of those same texts, he argues, shows that the first premise of this <strong>second main argument<\/strong> is true.<\/p>\n<ol>\n<li>Father and Son are <strong>not equal<\/strong>, i.e. equally divine.<\/li>\n<li>[But if Father and Son aren&#8217;t equally divine, the Trinity doctrine is false.]<\/li>\n<li>[So, the Trinity doctrine is false]<\/li>\n<\/ol>\n<p>Again, the argument is valid. And his opponent grants 2. And 1 is supported, Lewis argues, by the Bible.<\/p>\n<p>Finally, Lewis wonders if Christians are saying that God not a being, but a <strong>group<\/strong>, like the government. Surely, Lewis urges, we shouldn&#8217;t say <em>that<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p>Should we?<\/p>\n<p>You can also <strong>listen t<\/strong><strong>o this episode on<\/strong>\u00a0<strong><a title=\"trinities podcast @ stitcher\" href=\"http:\/\/www.stitcher.com\/s?fid=54067&amp;refid=stpr\" target=\"_blank\">Stitcher<\/a><\/strong>\u00a0or\u00a0<strong><a title=\"trinities @ itunes\" href=\"https:\/\/itunes.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/id690304581?mt=2&amp;uo=4&amp;at=11l5XS\" target=\"_blank\">iTunes<\/a>\u00a0(please subscribe, rate, and review<\/strong>\u00a0us in either or both \u2013 <strong><a title=\"how to rate us at iTunes and Stitcher\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/review\/\" target=\"_blank\">directions here<\/a><\/strong>). It is also available on\u00a0<a title=\"trinities podcast youtube playlist\" href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/playlist?list=PLMCt15e8gG-g7t7wo9MCq9KSDSsvGNcsm\" target=\"_blank\">YouTube<\/a> (scroll down \u2013 you can\u00a0<a title=\"youtube subscription link\" href=\"http:\/\/www.youtube.com\/user\/khanpadawan?sub_confirmation=1\" target=\"_blank\">subscribe here<\/a>). If you would like to\u00a0<strong>upload audio feedback<\/strong> for possible inclusion in a future episode of this podcast,\u00a0<a title=\"upload audio feedback for the trinities podcast here\" href=\"http:\/\/www.mediafire.com\/filedrop\/filedrop_hosted.php?drop=96df5ea43b9b7c6582cb95b8c5a7259d7cd8109e0cd009d4a5ecd099cc7e64fb\" target=\"_blank\">put the audio file here<\/a>.<\/p>\n<p>You can <strong>support the trinities podcast by ordering anything through Amazon.com<\/strong> after clicking through one of our links. We get a small % of your purchase, even though your price is not increased. (If you see \u201ctrinities\u201d in you\u00a0url while at Amazon, then we\u2019ll get it.)<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>On September 9,\u00a0 2013, Reformed Christian apologist\u00a0Anthony Rogers\u00a0debated\u00a0Islamic apologist Shadid Lewis. The debate question was: Are trinitarians polytheists? (Entire video here.) I think this debate is worth thinking through carefully. In this podcast series, I&#8217;m breaking up the debate into three listenable chunks. I&#8217;ve also slightly shortened the audio by removing some dead air, etc.,&hellip;&nbsp;<a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-17-lewis-vs-rogers-1-opening-statements\/\" rel=\"bookmark\">Read More &raquo;<span class=\"screen-reader-text\">podcast 17 &#8211; Lewis vs. Rogers 1 &#8211; opening statements<\/span><\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":5571,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"neve_meta_sidebar":"","neve_meta_container":"","neve_meta_enable_content_width":"","neve_meta_content_width":0,"neve_meta_title_alignment":"","neve_meta_author_avatar":"","neve_post_elements_order":"","neve_meta_disable_header":"","neve_meta_disable_footer":"","neve_meta_disable_title":"","footnotes":""},"categories":[37,21,15,54,33,59,57],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-5562","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-apologetics","category-bible","category-christology","category-debates","category-incarnation","category-islam","category-podcast"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/5562","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=5562"}],"version-history":[{"count":1,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/5562\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":36399,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/5562\/revisions\/36399"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/5571"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=5562"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=5562"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=5562"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}