{"id":5866,"date":"2014-01-27T11:21:41","date_gmt":"2014-01-27T16:21:41","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?p=5866"},"modified":"2018-12-03T22:24:30","modified_gmt":"2018-12-04T03:24:30","slug":"podcast-24-how-to-be-a-monotheistic-trinitarian","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-24-how-to-be-a-monotheistic-trinitarian\/","title":{"rendered":"podcast 24 &#8211; How to be a Monotheistic Trinitarian"},"content":{"rendered":"<div class=\"powerpress_player\" id=\"powerpress_player_5538\"><audio class=\"wp-audio-shortcode\" id=\"audio-5866-1\" preload=\"none\" style=\"width: 100%;\" controls=\"controls\"><source type=\"audio\/mpeg\" src=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities024.mp3?_=1\" \/><a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities024.mp3\">http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities024.mp3<\/a><\/audio><\/div><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_links_mp3\" style=\"margin-bottom: 1px !important;\">Podcast: <a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities024.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_pinw\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Play in new window\" onclick=\"return powerpress_pinw('https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?powerpress_pinw=5866-podcast');\" rel=\"nofollow\">Play in new window<\/a> | <a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities024.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_d\" title=\"Download\" rel=\"nofollow\" download=\"trinities024.mp3\">Download<\/a><\/p><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_subscribe_links\">Subscribe: <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/7FuUF9DZM3zhtN41n6RJ6l\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_spotify\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe on Spotify\" rel=\"nofollow\">Spotify<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/subscribebyemail.com\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_email\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe by Email\" rel=\"nofollow\">Email<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_rss\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe via RSS\" rel=\"nofollow\">RSS<\/a><\/p><p><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignleft size-full wp-image-5867\" src=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/back-to-the-past.jpg\" alt=\"back-to-the-past\" width=\"460\" height=\"225\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/back-to-the-past.jpg 460w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/back-to-the-past-300x147.jpg 300w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/back-to-the-past-420x205.jpg 420w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/back-to-the-past-90x44.jpg 90w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 460px) 100vw, 460px\" \/>Do you think <strong>unsurpassably &#8220;classic&#8221; thought about the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit<\/strong>, is from <strong>c. 370-460<\/strong>? In this paper, I argue that &#8220;Pro-Nicene&#8221; theology of that era does not show us Christians how to be self-consistent monotheists, while earlier catholic theologians like Tertullian and Origen (early 3rd c.) do show us how. The <em>most<\/em> classic source, of course, is the New Testament, which they can help us to see with fresh eyes. (Those thick Nicene goggles block a lot!)<\/p>\n<p>In the fifth century, Christianity had the luxury of not <strong>competing with Islam<\/strong>. As I discuss in the paper, Muslims can make a simple, and at first glance compelling argument against Christian theology.<\/p>\n<ol>\n<li>A claim which strongly and steadily seems contradictory, unless it can be re-stated in a seemingly consistent way, probably is contradictory.<\/li>\n<li>Contradictory claims are false.<\/li>\n<li>Trinitarian theology strongly and steadily seems contradictory, and can\u2019t be re-stated in a seemingly consistent way.<\/li>\n<li>Therefore, probably, trinitarian theology is false.\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 (1-3)<\/li>\n<\/ol>\n<p><strong>What to do?<\/strong> It seems we can&#8217;t reasonably accept 4!<\/p>\n<ul>\n<li>We can&#8217;t just loudly deny 4 &#8211; that is missing the point, as 1-3 support 4. This is to fail to &#8220;make your defense to anyone who demands from you an accounting for the hope that is in you&#8230; with gentleness and reverence.&#8221; (1 Peter 3:15-6)<\/li>\n<li>Only a few foolhardy Protestants will deny 2. If this doesn&#8217;t seem foolhardy to you, I recommend the sober discussion by Reformed analytic theologian Dr. James Anderson in <a title=\"Paradox in Christian Theology\" href=\"http:\/\/astore.amazon.com\/trinities-20\/detail\/1842274627\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">this book, pp. 117-26<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Only uber-sophisticates can concoct reasons for denying 1, which seems, in the end, more secure than their reasons. (Also, they constantly believe 1 in other contexts.) If you are such a sophisticate, I invite you to consider <a title=\"On Positive Mysterianism\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/dale\/On%20Positive%20Mysterianism.pdf\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">these arguments<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>3 seems true at first glance, and on a second.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p>But in this paper, I show how Tertullian (d. c. 225) and particularly <strong>Origen<\/strong> (d. 254), show both Christians and Muslims why <strong>3 should be denied<\/strong>. This is because, for all their speculations, Tertullian and Origen preserve elements of New Testament teaching which were later overwritten.<\/p>\n<p>This podcast features the <strong>actual audio of my presentation<\/strong> at the <a title=\"podcast episode 23\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-23-report-from-the-second-annual-los-angeles-theology-conference\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">theology conference discussed in episode 23<\/a>. My thanks to the audience for their excellent questions and discussions during and after my session. They were a great group.<\/p>\n<p>You can also <strong>listen t<\/strong><strong>o this episode on<\/strong>\u00a0<strong><a title=\"trinities podcast @ stitcher\" href=\"http:\/\/www.stitcher.com\/s?fid=54067&amp;refid=stpr\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Stitcher<\/a><\/strong>\u00a0or\u00a0<strong><a title=\"trinities @ itunes\" href=\"https:\/\/itunes.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/id690304581?mt=2&amp;uo=4&amp;at=11l5XS\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">iTunes<\/a>\u00a0(please subscribe, rate, and review<\/strong>\u00a0us in either or both \u2013 <strong><a title=\"how to rate us at iTunes and Stitcher\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/review\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">directions here<\/a><\/strong>). It is also available on\u00a0<a title=\"trinities podcast youtube playlist\" href=\"http:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=3_M-E8ynFws\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">YouTube<\/a> (you can\u00a0<a title=\"youtube subscription link\" href=\"http:\/\/www.youtube.com\/user\/khanpadawan?sub_confirmation=1\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">subscribe here<\/a>). If you would like to\u00a0<strong>upload audio feedback<\/strong> for possible inclusion in a future episode of this podcast,\u00a0<a title=\"upload audio feedback for the trinities podcast here\" href=\"http:\/\/www.mediafire.com\/filedrop\/filedrop_hosted.php?drop=96df5ea43b9b7c6582cb95b8c5a7259d7cd8109e0cd009d4a5ecd099cc7e64fb\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">put the audio file here<\/a>.<\/p>\n<p>You can <strong>support the trinities podcast by ordering anything through Amazon.com<\/strong> after clicking through one of our links. We get a small % of your purchase, even though your price is not increased. (If you see \u201ctrinities\u201d in you\u00a0url while at Amazon, then we\u2019ll get it.)<\/p>\n<p>The <strong>song<\/strong> in this episode is<a title=\"AcidJazz at the Free Music Archive\" href=\"http:\/\/freemusicarchive.org\/music\/Kevin_MacLeod\/Jazz_Sampler\/AcidJazz_1430\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"> &#8220;AcidJazz&#8221; by Kevin MacLeod<\/a>. <em>Not<\/em> classic rock, but enjoyable nonetheless!<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Earlier catholic theologians like Tertullian and Origen show us how.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":5867,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"neve_meta_sidebar":"","neve_meta_container":"","neve_meta_enable_content_width":"","neve_meta_content_width":0,"neve_meta_title_alignment":"","neve_meta_author_avatar":"","neve_post_elements_order":"","neve_meta_disable_header":"","neve_meta_disable_footer":"","neve_meta_disable_title":"","footnotes":""},"categories":[37,21,58,4,14,55,59,38,20,47,9,57,3,43],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-5866","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-apologetics","category-bible","category-creeds","category-heresy-orthodoxy","category-history","category-holy-spirit","category-islam","category-monotheism","category-mystery","category-papers","category-philosophy","category-podcast","category-theories","category-unitarianism"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/5866","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=5866"}],"version-history":[{"count":3,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/5866\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":40765,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/5866\/revisions\/40765"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/5867"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=5866"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=5866"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=5866"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}