{"id":5956,"date":"2014-02-11T11:37:23","date_gmt":"2014-02-11T16:37:23","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?p=5956"},"modified":"2014-02-11T11:37:23","modified_gmt":"2014-02-11T16:37:23","slug":"parsing-plantinga-is-there-such-a-person-as-god","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/parsing-plantinga-is-there-such-a-person-as-god\/","title":{"rendered":"Parsing Plantinga: is there such a person as God?"},"content":{"rendered":"<p><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignleft  wp-image-5957\" alt=\"teapot\" src=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/teapot.jpg\" width=\"699\" height=\"448\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/teapot.jpg 998w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/teapot-300x192.jpg 300w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/teapot-420x269.jpg 420w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/teapot-460x295.jpg 460w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/teapot-90x58.jpg 90w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 699px) 100vw, 699px\" \/>Here&#8217;s <strong><a title=\"Gary Gutting interviews Alvin Plantinga\" href=\"http:\/\/mobile.nytimes.com\/blogs\/opinionator\/2014\/02\/09\/is-atheism-irrational\/?h=3AQFUwoMG&amp;s=1&amp;enc=AZOChIUjFGloXun2uhrP3hdfQiTBjaUesYF-8Afv37bTraejKHG1koe-xfHZrXkGBFjCmHjBNmTwFtrWZQFgUt67&amp;_php=true&amp;_type=blogs&amp;_r=1\" target=\"_blank\">a very interesting interview<\/a><\/strong> with probably the <a title=\"Alvin Plantinga writings\" href=\"http:\/\/www.andrewmbailey.com\/ap\/\" target=\"_blank\">greatest living Christian philosopher<\/a>. Like many of my peers, I&#8217;m a big fan. Read the whole thing to see why I picked a teapot. Here are some relevant bits (with my own bolding):<\/p>\n<blockquote><p>I take atheism to be the belief that there is no such<strong> person as the God<\/strong> of the theistic religions.<\/p>\n<p><strong>The first being of the universe, perfect in goodness, power and knowledge, creates<\/strong> free creatures. These free creatures turn their backs on <strong>him<\/strong>, rebel against him and get involved in sin and evil. Rather than treat them as some ancient potentate might \u2014 e.g., having them boiled in oil \u2014 God responds by <strong>sending his son<\/strong> into the world to suffer and die so that human beings might once more be in a right relationship to God. <strong>God himself<\/strong> undergoes the enormous suffering involved in seeing <strong>his son<\/strong> mocked, ridiculed, beaten and crucified. And all this for the sake of these sinful creatures.<\/p>\n<p>The most important ground of belief is probably not philosophical argument but religious experience. Many people of very many different cultures have thought themselves in experiential touch with a <strong>being<\/strong> worthy of worship. They believe that there is <strong>such a person<\/strong>, but not because of the explanatory prowess of such belief.<\/p>\n<p>Thomas Nagel, a terrific philosopher and an unusually perceptive atheist, says he simply <strong>doesn\u2019t want there to be any such person as God<\/strong>. And it isn\u2019t hard to see why. For one thing, there would be what some would think was an intolerable invasion of privacy: God would <strong>know<\/strong> my every thought long before I thought it.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p>Is Plantinga <strong>a trinitarian? <\/strong><a title=\"definition of trinitarian\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/archives\/3747\" target=\"_blank\">(definition)<\/a> Sic et non:<\/p>\n<ul>\n<li>Sic. Plantinga is indeed a <strong>trinitarian<\/strong>, but as a Protestant, he&#8217;s speaking in a biblical mode (and not a post-4th c. catholic mode) where &#8220;God&#8221; normally names the Father, one &#8220;person&#8221; of the Trinity. As he thinks that the &#8220;persons&#8221; &#8211; at least the Father and Son really are <a title=\"the term self explained\" href=\"http:\/\/plato.stanford.edu\/entries\/trinity\/#SelGodMod\" target=\"_blank\">selves<\/a>, he is not a one-self trinitarian, but probably a three-selfer, like <a title=\"Neal Plantinga, former President of Calvin Seminary\" href=\"http:\/\/en.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/Cornelius_Plantinga\" target=\"_blank\">his brother<\/a>.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<ul>\n<li>Non. But if he were a three selfer, he&#8217;d think the one &#8220;God&#8221; was a group of three divine selves, or a whole composed of three selves (which isn&#8217;t itself a self). But he thinks the one God <em>is<\/em> a self, and that this self is the Father. (John 17:3) The Son isn&#8217;t the one God, but is someone else, God&#8217;s Son, as in the New Testament. So, he&#8217;s a <strong>unitarian<\/strong> <a title=\"definition of unitarian Christian\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/archives\/3767\" target=\"_blank\">(definition)<\/a> not a trinitarian.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p>Which is true? I don&#8217;t know. If I had to bet,<strong> I&#8217;d bet on Sic<\/strong>. But <em>if<\/em> that&#8217;s so (and I&#8217;m not saying that it is, but only raising the question) I would object that he&#8217;s talking in ways which can only make people think that the one God just is (is identical to) the Father, and not the Trinity &#8211; something he takes to be false. If it <em>ain&#8217;t<\/em> so, I&#8217;d congratulate him for being a good Protestant and choosing the Bible when it <a title=\"How Trinity theories conflict with the NT\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/archives\/3948\" target=\"_blank\">contradicts catholic tradition<\/a>.<\/p>\n<p>I do feel <strong>fairly sure about<\/strong> the following things: by &#8220;person&#8221; here he means self, and not mode, mask, personality, or manifestation, etc. &#8211; not something which is a way a self is. He agrees with the NT that Father and Son love one another. And he does <em>not<\/em> think Father and Son are the same self, or modes of the same self, or that the Son is a mode of the Father. And he agrees that the Father and Son are numerically distinct, because they do and have differed.<\/p>\n<p>But these are <strong>held in common<\/strong> by many &#8220;social&#8221; (three self) trinitarians and by biblical unitarians of various sorts. Hence, my curiosity.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Here&#8217;s a very interesting interview with probably the greatest living Christian philosopher. Like many of my peers, I&#8217;m a big fan. Read the whole thing to see why I picked a teapot. Here are some relevant bits (with my own bolding): I take atheism to be the belief that there is no such person as&hellip;&nbsp;<a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/parsing-plantinga-is-there-such-a-person-as-god\/\" rel=\"bookmark\">Read More &raquo;<span class=\"screen-reader-text\">Parsing Plantinga: is there such a person as God?<\/span><\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":5957,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"neve_meta_sidebar":"","neve_meta_container":"","neve_meta_enable_content_width":"","neve_meta_content_width":0,"neve_meta_title_alignment":"","neve_meta_author_avatar":"","neve_post_elements_order":"","neve_meta_disable_header":"","neve_meta_disable_footer":"","neve_meta_disable_title":"","footnotes":""},"categories":[21,4,56,8,47,9,7,43],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-5956","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-bible","category-heresy-orthodoxy","category-interview","category-linkage","category-papers","category-philosophy","category-quotes","category-unitarianism"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/5956","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=5956"}],"version-history":[{"count":1,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/5956\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":5961,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/5956\/revisions\/5961"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/5957"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=5956"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=5956"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=5956"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}