{"id":6523,"date":"2014-10-04T15:28:08","date_gmt":"2014-10-04T19:28:08","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?p=6523"},"modified":"2014-10-04T15:28:08","modified_gmt":"2014-10-04T19:28:08","slug":"j-dan-gill-must-one-believe-in-the-trinity-and-the-two-natures-of-jesus-to-be-saved","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/j-dan-gill-must-one-believe-in-the-trinity-and-the-two-natures-of-jesus-to-be-saved\/","title":{"rendered":"J. Dan Gill: Must one believe in the Trinity and the two natures of Jesus to be saved?"},"content":{"rendered":"<p><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignright  wp-image-6529\" src=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/music-city-miracle1.jpg\" alt=\"music city miracle\" width=\"512\" height=\"212\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/music-city-miracle1.jpg 700w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/music-city-miracle1-300x124.jpg 300w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/music-city-miracle1-420x174.jpg 420w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/music-city-miracle1-460x191.jpg 460w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/music-city-miracle1-90x37.jpg 90w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 512px) 100vw, 512px\" \/>In this interesting presentation called &#8220;<strong><a title=\"presentation by J. Dan Gill - Another Music City Miracle\" href=\"http:\/\/www.21stcr.org\/multimedia\/music_city_miracle\/music_city_miracle.html\" target=\"_blank\">Yet Another Music City Miracle<\/a>&#8221; pastor <a title=\"Dan Gill page at 21st century reformation\" href=\"http:\/\/www.21stcr.org\/contributors\/j_dan_gill.html\" target=\"_blank\">J. Dan Gill<\/a><\/strong> points out that the way evangelicals evangelize is incompatible with the old catholic tradition, famously asserted in the &#8220;Athanasian&#8221; creed,<\/p>\n<blockquote><p><strong>Whosoever will be saved<\/strong>, before all things it is <strong>necessary<\/strong> that he hold the catholic faith; Which faith except every one do keep <strong>whole and undefiled<\/strong>, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity&#8230;<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p>Part of Gill&#8217;s point may be put as <strong>an inconsistent triad<\/strong>. We must, to be consistent, deny one of these, even though tradition may push us to accept all three. But which should we deny?<\/p>\n<ol>\n<li>People\u00a0have been born again at Billy Graham crusades.<\/li>\n<li>People have not been\u00a0taught the Trinity or the two natures of Christ at Billy Graham crusades.<\/li>\n<li>One must believe in the Trinity and the two natures of Christ to be saved.<\/li>\n<\/ol>\n<p><strong>2, I think, is undeniable<\/strong>, given the content of the preaching at such crusades, and the instructions given to the trained &#8220;counselors&#8221; who interact with people who answer the altar call. Pastor Gill believes <strong>1 is true<\/strong>, and I concur. I&#8217;m not sure if I&#8217;ve known any such people, but I take it this is why such a broad coalition of Christians supported those, and like crusades for decades. Also, if you&#8217;re a Christian,<strong> consider your own case<\/strong>. When were you converted? <em>At that time<\/em>, did you at any level understand the Definition of the Council of Chalcedon, or the &#8220;Athanasian&#8221; creed? Many will say no, yet are sure they were nonetheless born again. Well, then 3 must be false. This is not huge news to many of us. I was brought up in various evangelical churches, and never really was taught 3.<\/p>\n<p>This biblical unitarian pastor from Tennessee noticed <a title=\"podcast episodes on John Locke's The Reasonableness of Christianity\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?s=john+locke\" target=\"_blank\">what the great Christian philosopher John Locke did<\/a> about New Testament preaching, particularly in Acts: it simply doesn&#8217;t include the Trinity or two natures doctrines.<\/p>\n<p>Here are a few additional thoughts. This is\u00a0<strong>one question<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<ul>\n<li>What must one believe to be saved?<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p>and here&#8217;s <strong>another<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<ul>\n<li>What must one believe. having been saved?<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p>Surely, generally speaking, the latter requires <strong>more than<\/strong> the former. But if the terms of the deal changed, when did they change? And how long could one remain a Christian in good standing, whilst only believing the minimum required? I suppose that one is <strong>responsible to believe, or<\/strong> at least to confess or not publicly disagree with essential Christian teachings when one has been adequately taught those truths. If you believe the Bible to be inspired, and as best you can tell, it teaches X, you must believe X. This X, as best you can tell, is part of what God is saying. \u00a0Because of this, <strong>in my view,\u00a0many Christians ought to believe some version of the Trinity doctrine. But also<\/strong>, they should be open to a clash between apostolic teaching and later traditions. (<a title=\"the New Testament vs. Trinity theories\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/archives\/3948\" target=\"_blank\">That&#8217;s what I&#8217;ve discovered in this area<\/a>.) And if you hold some theory, and the one you&#8217;re teaching can&#8217;t see that this is actually what the sources teach, then <strong>you can&#8217;t impose it<\/strong> on him as a condition of fellowship. (Of course, you <em>can<\/em> respectfully argue the matter!) This is the key point that&#8217;s so often lost on people &#8211; <a title=\"Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy\" href=\"http:\/\/plato.stanford.edu\/entries\/trinity\/\" target=\"_blank\">Trinity theories are many, and they are mutually inconsistent<\/a>, and so the matter is simply not clear enough for <em>everyone<\/em> to be obligated to believe something very specific about this matter. But this is the beauty of reasoned dialogue; we start wherever we&#8217;re both at, and try to find the truth of the matter together.<\/p>\n<p>A major confusion here is that tell ourselves <strong>that we don&#8217;t have any theory<\/strong> &#8211; we&#8217;re just reading what the Bible <em>says<\/em>. This is a sure sign of being a prisoner to someone else&#8217;s speculations, being unable to see anything else in the texts, when in fact, many do see (or think they see) other things there. Got to read more widely, argue with more people. Got to understand <em>why<\/em> the other sides think what they do.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>In this interesting presentation called &#8220;Yet Another Music City Miracle&#8221; pastor J. Dan Gill points out that the way evangelicals evangelize is incompatible with the old catholic tradition, famously asserted in the &#8220;Athanasian&#8221; creed, Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith; Which faith except every one&hellip;&nbsp;<a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/j-dan-gill-must-one-believe-in-the-trinity-and-the-two-natures-of-jesus-to-be-saved\/\" rel=\"bookmark\">Read More &raquo;<span class=\"screen-reader-text\">J. Dan Gill: Must one believe in the Trinity and the two natures of Jesus to be saved?<\/span><\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":6526,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"neve_meta_sidebar":"","neve_meta_container":"","neve_meta_enable_content_width":"","neve_meta_content_width":0,"neve_meta_title_alignment":"","neve_meta_author_avatar":"","neve_post_elements_order":"","neve_meta_disable_header":"","neve_meta_disable_footer":"","neve_meta_disable_title":"","footnotes":""},"categories":[37,21,6,58,4,8,3,43],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-6523","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-apologetics","category-bible","category-complaints","category-creeds","category-heresy-orthodoxy","category-linkage","category-theories","category-unitarianism"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/6523","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=6523"}],"version-history":[{"count":1,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/6523\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":6555,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/6523\/revisions\/6555"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/6526"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=6523"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=6523"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=6523"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}