{"id":6778,"date":"2014-12-08T13:39:44","date_gmt":"2014-12-08T18:39:44","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?p=6778"},"modified":"2016-03-17T10:50:17","modified_gmt":"2016-03-17T14:50:17","slug":"podcast-65-dr-joshua-blander-on-john-duns-scotus-on-identity-and-distinction","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-65-dr-joshua-blander-on-john-duns-scotus-on-identity-and-distinction\/","title":{"rendered":"podcast 65 &#8211; Dr. Joshua Blander on John Duns Scotus on Identity and Distinction"},"content":{"rendered":"<div class=\"powerpress_player\" id=\"powerpress_player_4380\"><audio class=\"wp-audio-shortcode\" id=\"audio-6778-1\" preload=\"none\" style=\"width: 100%;\" controls=\"controls\"><source type=\"audio\/mpeg\" src=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities065.mp3?_=1\" \/><a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities065.mp3\">http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities065.mp3<\/a><\/audio><\/div><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_links_mp3\" style=\"margin-bottom: 1px !important;\">Podcast: <a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities065.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_pinw\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Play in new window\" onclick=\"return powerpress_pinw('https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?powerpress_pinw=6778-podcast');\" rel=\"nofollow\">Play in new window<\/a> | <a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities065.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_d\" title=\"Download\" rel=\"nofollow\" download=\"trinities065.mp3\">Download<\/a><\/p><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_subscribe_links\">Subscribe: <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/7FuUF9DZM3zhtN41n6RJ6l\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_spotify\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe on Spotify\" rel=\"nofollow\">Spotify<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/subscribebyemail.com\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_email\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe by Email\" rel=\"nofollow\">Email<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_rss\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe via RSS\" rel=\"nofollow\">RSS<\/a><\/p><p><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignleft size-full wp-image-6780\" src=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/john-duns-scotus.jpg\" alt=\"john duns scotus\" width=\"351\" height=\"442\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/john-duns-scotus.jpg 351w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/john-duns-scotus-238x300.jpg 238w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/john-duns-scotus-90x113.jpg 90w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 351px) 100vw, 351px\" \/> <strong><a title=\"John Duns Scotus\" href=\"http:\/\/plato.stanford.edu\/entries\/duns-scotus\/\" target=\"_blank\">John Duns Scotus<\/a><\/strong> (d. 1308), nicknamed by tradition &#8220;the Subtle Doctor,&#8221; was one of the most important medieval Christian philosophers, and was notorious for the difficulty of his thought. In <a title=\"trinities podcast episode 65\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities%20065%20-%20Dr%20Joshua%20Blander%20on%20John%20Duns%20Scotus%20on%20Identity%20and%20Distinction.mp3\" target=\"_blank\">this episode<\/a>, we hear a specialist in medieval philosophy give a conference presentation on Scotus&#8217;s views on identity (sameness) and distinction (difference).<\/p>\n<p>Nowadays most philosophers and logicians recognize<strong> qualitative sameness (aka\u00a0similarity)<\/strong>, which comes in degrees, and <strong>numerical sameness<\/strong> <strong>(aka numerical or absolute identity)<\/strong>, which doesn&#8217;t come in degrees, and which is a symmetrical, transitive, and reflexive relation. This latter, numerical identity, is a relation which a thing can only bear to itself.<\/p>\n<p>If these are all we have to work with, then we get apparent contradictions from trinitarian claims. For instance, consider this <strong>triad of claims<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<ol>\n<li>The Father is\u00a0God.<\/li>\n<li>The Son is God.<\/li>\n<li>The Father is not the same as the Son.<\/li>\n<\/ol>\n<p>If the Father is <em>numerically identical to<\/em> God (1), and so is the Son (2), then it follows (because the relation is symmetrical and transitive), that\u00a0the Father and Son are numerically identical. (So, 3 is false)\u00a0The above three claims, so understood, are an inconsistent triad &#8211; if any two are true, the remaining claim is false. But arguably,<a title=\"trinities podcast episode 2 - the Athanasian Creed\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/archives\/4892\" target=\"_blank\"> the &#8220;Athanasian Creed&#8221;<\/a> requires them all.<\/p>\n<p>That is, interpreting the above triad in terms of numerical identity, there would be this valid argument:<\/p>\n<ol>\n<li>f = g<\/li>\n<li>s = g<\/li>\n<li>g = s (from 2, symmetricality)<\/li>\n<li>f= s (from 1 and 3, by transitivity)<\/li>\n<\/ol>\n<p>But 4\u00a0is a<strong> disastrous conclusion<\/strong>. We know that a thing can&#8217;t, at the same time and in the same way, differ from itself. But according to the New Testament, the Father and Son <em>have<\/em> differed. To put it differently, numerical sameness forces indiscernibility. If any A just is some B, then A and B can&#8217;t differ in the smallest way. But the Father and Son do differ, and so they must be non-identical, which is to say, numerically distinct. What does it mean to say, then, that each of them &#8220;is God.&#8221; Perhaps the statements simply mean <strong>that each is divine<\/strong>, that each has the divine attributes or a divine nature. Father and Son would then be not numerically identical, but rather similar &#8211; that is, like one another, in respect of being divine. But then we have two beings, each of which is divine; this would appear to be two gods. What now?<\/p>\n<p>One response is to <strong>make additional distinctions<\/strong>, to argue that our concepts of numerical and qualitative sameness are not enough. This is the course pursued by John Duns Scotus. He holds that we must consider sameness and difference both in the mind, and as it were &#8220;on the side of things&#8221; in the world, and then he goes on to make further distinctions, which he thinks are relevant not only to theology, but also to more general metaphysics.<img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignright wp-image-6799\" src=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Josh-Blander-better.jpg\" alt=\"Josh Blander - better\" width=\"205\" height=\"262\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Josh-Blander-better.jpg 389w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Josh-Blander-better-235x300.jpg 235w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Josh-Blander-better-90x115.jpg 90w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 205px) 100vw, 205px\" \/><\/p>\n<p>Our presenter is\u00a0<strong><a title=\"Josh Blander professional page\" href=\"https:\/\/www.tkc.edu\/faculty-and-staff\/joshua-blander\" target=\"_blank\">Dr. Joshua Blander<\/a><\/strong>, Assistant Professor\u00a0of Philosophy at <a title=\"The King's College\" href=\"https:\/\/www.tkc.edu\/\" target=\"_blank\">The King&#8217;s College<\/a> in New York City. His paper is called <strong>&#8220;Being the\u00a0Same without Being the Same: Duns\u00a0Scotus on Identity and Distinction.&#8221;<\/strong> <a title=\"Joshua Blander on John Duns Scotus - handout from SCP presentation\" href=\"https:\/\/drive.google.com\/file\/d\/0B4UXgrVQ7FzmeWRMT2pOcm12SVk\/view?usp=sharing\" target=\"_blank\">Here is his <strong>handout<\/strong><\/a> from the presentation, which will help you to follow along.<\/p>\n<p>You can also <strong>listen t<\/strong><strong>o this episode on<\/strong>\u00a0<strong><a title=\"trinities podcast @ stitcher\" href=\"http:\/\/www.stitcher.com\/s?fid=54067&amp;refid=stpr\" target=\"_blank\">stitcher<\/a><\/strong>\u00a0or <strong><a title=\"trinities @ itunes\" href=\"https:\/\/itunes.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/id690304581?mt=2&amp;uo=4&amp;at=11l5XS\" target=\"_blank\">itunes<\/a><\/strong>\u00a0(please subscribe and rate us in either or both).\u00a0 If you would like to\u00a0<strong>upload audio feedback<\/strong> for possible inclusion in a future episode of this podcast,\u00a0<a title=\"upload audio feedback for the trinities podcast here\" href=\"http:\/\/www.mediafire.com\/filedrop\/filedrop_hosted.php?drop=96df5ea43b9b7c6582cb95b8c5a7259d7cd8109e0cd009d4a5ecd099cc7e64fb\" target=\"_blank\">put the audio file here<\/a>.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Links for this episode:<\/strong><\/p>\n<ul>\n<li><a title=\"Dr. Joshua Blander home page and The King's College\" href=\"https:\/\/www.tkc.edu\/faculty-and-staff\/joshua-blander\" target=\"_blank\">Dr. Joshua Blander<\/a><\/li>\n<li>John Duns Scotus\n<ul>\n<li><a title=\"John Duns Scotus\" href=\"http:\/\/plato.stanford.edu\/entries\/duns-scotus\/\" target=\"_blank\">at the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a title=\"John Duns Scotus at the Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy\" href=\"http:\/\/www.iep.utm.edu\/scotus\/\" target=\"_blank\">at the Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a title=\"John Duns Scotus - works at the Franciscan Archive\" href=\"http:\/\/www.franciscan-archive.org\/scotus\/\" target=\"_blank\">at the Franciscan Archive<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<li>previous \u00a0trinities posts\n<ul>\n<li><a title=\"post on numerical identity\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/archives\/2999\" target=\"_blank\">on identity<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a title=\"on the indiscernibility of identicals\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/archives\/4296\" target=\"_blank\">on the indiscernibility of identicals<\/a>\u00a0(<a title=\"post on the indiscernibility of identicals\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/archives\/3011\" target=\"_blank\">and another<\/a>)<\/li>\n<li>on the minority view in present-day philosophy that there can be numerical sameness without identity\n<ul>\n<li><a title=\"post on numerical sameness without identity\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/archives\/130\" target=\"_blank\">pro<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a title=\"post against numerical sameness without identity\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/archives\/136\" target=\"_blank\">con<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<li>episodes on &#8220;Before Abraham was, I am.&#8221; (John 8:58): <a title=\"trinities podcast episode 62\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/archives\/6684\" target=\"_blank\">episode 62<\/a>, <a title=\"trinities podcast episode 63\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/archives\/6701\" target=\"_blank\">episode 63<\/a><\/li>\n<li><em><a title=\"The Apostolic Fathers, translated by Holmes\" href=\"http:\/\/astore.amazon.com\/trinities-20\/detail\/080103468X\" target=\"_blank\">The Apostolic Fathers<\/a><\/em><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>John Duns Scotus (d. 1308), nicknamed by tradition &#8220;the Subtle Doctor,&#8221; was one of the most important medieval Christian philosophers, and was notorious for the difficulty of his thought. In this episode, we hear a specialist in medieval philosophy give a conference presentation on Scotus&#8217;s views on identity (sameness) and distinction (difference). Nowadays most philosophers&hellip;&nbsp;<a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-65-dr-joshua-blander-on-john-duns-scotus-on-identity-and-distinction\/\" rel=\"bookmark\">Read More &raquo;<span class=\"screen-reader-text\">podcast 65 &#8211; Dr. Joshua Blander on John Duns Scotus on Identity and Distinction<\/span><\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":6799,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"neve_meta_sidebar":"","neve_meta_container":"","neve_meta_enable_content_width":"","neve_meta_content_width":0,"neve_meta_title_alignment":"","neve_meta_author_avatar":"","neve_post_elements_order":"","neve_meta_disable_header":"","neve_meta_disable_footer":"","neve_meta_disable_title":"","footnotes":""},"categories":[14,10,9,57,3],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-6778","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-history","category-logic","category-philosophy","category-podcast","category-theories"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/6778","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=6778"}],"version-history":[{"count":2,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/6778\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":37191,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/6778\/revisions\/37191"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/6799"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=6778"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=6778"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=6778"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}