{"id":6929,"date":"2014-12-20T04:19:58","date_gmt":"2014-12-20T09:19:58","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?p=6929"},"modified":"2016-07-02T15:57:42","modified_gmt":"2016-07-02T19:57:42","slug":"did-jesus-have-faith-in-god-part-4","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/did-jesus-have-faith-in-god-part-4\/","title":{"rendered":"Did Jesus have faith in God? &#8211; part 4"},"content":{"rendered":"<p><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignright wp-image-6930\" src=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Council-of-Chalcedon-from-the-Nuremberg-chronicles.jpg\" alt=\"Council of Chalcedon from the Nuremberg chronicles\" width=\"413\" height=\"436\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Council-of-Chalcedon-from-the-Nuremberg-chronicles.jpg 463w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Council-of-Chalcedon-from-the-Nuremberg-chronicles-284x300.jpg 284w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Council-of-Chalcedon-from-the-Nuremberg-chronicles-420x444.jpg 420w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Council-of-Chalcedon-from-the-Nuremberg-chronicles-460x486.jpg 460w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Council-of-Chalcedon-from-the-Nuremberg-chronicles-90x95.jpg 90w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 413px) 100vw, 413px\" \/>In <a title=\"part 3\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/did-jesus-have-faith-in-god-part-3\/\" target=\"_blank\">part 3<\/a> we looked at a number of arguments relating to Jesus, God, and faith. Perhaps the most important was this:<\/p>\n<blockquote><p>1. God doesn&#8217;t have faith.<\/p>\n<p>2. Jesus is God.<\/p>\n<p>3. Therefore, Jesus doesn&#8217;t have faith. \u00a0(1, 2)<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p>I <a title=\"part 1\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/did-jesus-have-faith-in-god-part-1\/\" target=\"_blank\">argued in part 1<\/a> that 3 is ruled out by New Testament teaching. And given that the above argument is valid,<strong> it can&#8217;t be that both 1 and 2 are true<\/strong>; at least one of them must be false. But evangelical tradition commits strongly to both 1 and 2. But in theory, evangelicals are catholics &#8211; they are, as they say, &#8220;committed to historic Christian orthodoxy.&#8221;<\/p>\n<p>Here&#8217;s<strong> a more traditionally catholic approach<\/strong> to this argument:<\/p>\n<ul>\n<li>&#8220;God&#8221; in 1 is ambiguous. Does it refer to the Father, the Son, or the Holy Spirit, or to the Holy Trinity?\n<ul>\n<li>We think 1 is true on any of these except the second. It is false that the Son doesn&#8217;t have faith.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<ul>\n<li>Or, if 1 is rather making a general point, that nothing with the divine nature has faith, then we say that is false, for the Son has it, and has faith.<\/li>\n<li>BUT, maybe the point is that a being with the divine nature, <em>as divine<\/em>, doesn&#8217;t have faith.\n<ul>\n<li><em>That<\/em> we think is true. So let&#8217;s understand 1 as 1a: One who has the divine nature doesn&#8217;t, as such, have faith.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<li>Now what does 2 mean? <em>We<\/em> would take it to mean that Jesus has the divine nature. So 2a: Jesus has the divine nature.<\/li>\n<li>3 is ambiguous.\n<ul>\n<li>Does it mean: 3a: Jesus, as man, doesn&#8217;t have faith? (We think this is false.)<\/li>\n<li>Or does it mean 3b:\u00a0Jesus, as God, doesn&#8217;t have faith? (We think this is true.)\n<ul>\n<li>Don&#8217;t forget that Jesus is one person with two natures, as was ruled in 451 at Chalcedon. As having a human nature, Jesus has faith. But as divine, Jesus doesn&#8217;t have faith.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p>Therefore, <strong>on the traditional catholic perspective, <em>this<\/em> is a valid and sound argument:<\/strong><\/p>\n<blockquote><p>1a: One who has the divine nature doesn&#8217;t, as such, have faith.<\/p>\n<p>2a: Jesus has the divine nature.<\/p>\n<p>3b: Jesus, as God (as having the divine nature), doesn&#8217;t have faith.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p><strong>What are we to make of this argument?<\/strong> One might think\u00a0it is simply changing the subject, as there is nothing unclear about any premise in 1-3. &#8220;God&#8221; there is YHWH, the one true God, the God of Israel, creator of the heavens and the earth. 2 is a simple identity claim. And 3 clearly follows from 1 and 2. I agree that nothing is unclear in 1-3. In contrast, the &#8220;as&#8221; language is 1a and 3b <em>is<\/em> unclear.<\/p>\n<p>And this is<strong> the heart of this catholic\u00a0response:\u00a0<\/strong>that we can accept that Jesus has faith, and that Jesus doesn&#8217;t have faith. Of course, Jesus can&#8217;t both have and lack faith<em> in the same time and in the same way<\/em>. That&#8217;d violate the principle of non-contradiction. We must <strong>make a distinction<\/strong>, and it is not of different times. Rather, read in one way, &#8220;Jesus has faith&#8221; is true, and read differently, it is false.<\/p>\n<p><strong>But just <em>what is<\/em> this distinction? There are seemingly only three components to &#8220;Jesus has faith&#8221;<\/strong> &#8211; the subject (Jesus), the copula (has), and the predicate (faith). The claim must be that one of these terms is ambiguous, and if we can recognize the distinction, we&#8217;ll see how &#8220;Jesus has faith&#8221; is true using one interpretation, but false using the other. Let&#8217;s try the options:<\/p>\n<ul>\n<li><strong>subject<\/strong>: Jesus&#8217;s divine nature doesn&#8217;t have faith, but Jesus&#8217;s human nature has faith.\n<ul>\n<li>Two problems here:\n<ul>\n<li>if \u00a0a nature is something that can have faith, then seemingly natures are selves, something like souls.\n<ul>\n<li>But this heretical Nestorianism.<\/li>\n<li>And more importantly, it is a terrible interpretation of the NT that there are two selves in Jesus&#8217;s body.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<li>The other problem is that the catholic idea seems to be that one and the same self &#8211; Jesus has both divine and human attributes &#8211; not two different beings (the human nature, the divine nature). If &#8220;Jesus has faith, and Jesus lacks faith&#8221; is parsed as &#8220;Jesus&#8217;s human nature has faith, and &#8220;Jesus&#8217;s divine nature lacks faith&#8221; &#8211; that&#8217;s consistent, but this is because we&#8217;re<em> talking about two different subjects<\/em>!<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<li><strong>copula<\/strong>: Jesus has-as-human faith, but Jesus doesn&#8217;t have-as-divine faith.\n<ul>\n<li>Here, the subject is the same, but I don&#8217;t think anyone knows what it means to &#8220;have-as-human&#8221; or to &#8220;have-as-divine&#8221;. The suggested distinction is unintelligible.\n<ul>\n<li>Unless they mean this, which is understandable: that Jesus has some feature <em>because<\/em> he&#8217;s human, and that he doesn&#8217;t have some feature <em>because<\/em> he&#8217;s divine.\n<ul>\n<li>But then it would follow that one and the same Jesus both has and lacks the same feature, faith. The contradiction remains, under these easy to understand interpretations.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<li><strong>predicate<\/strong>: Jesus has this property: <em>faith-as-human<\/em>. Jesus lacks this property:<em> faith-as-divine<\/em>.\u00a0One subject (Jesus) here, and only one meaning for &#8220;has,&#8221; but we&#8217;re not talking about having and lacking the same property (faith), but rather about having faith-as-human and lacking faith-as-divine.\n<ul>\n<li>I understand what faith is. I have it, and Richard Dawkins lacks it. But I have no idea what it means to say that anyone has <em>faith-as-human<\/em>, or <em>faith-as-divine<\/em>.\n<ul>\n<li>Of course, we <em>do<\/em> understand what it is to say that someone has faith <em>because<\/em> they&#8217;re a human, and lacks faith <em>because<\/em> they&#8217;re divine. But then, one and the same self would both have and lack faith; the contradiction would remain &#8211; &#8220;Jesus has faith because he&#8217;s human and Jesus lacks faith because he&#8217;s divine.&#8221; Well, then he both has and lacks faith, and that&#8217;s a contradiction.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignright size-full wp-image-6944\" src=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Mr-Bean-say-what.jpg\" alt=\"GERMANY-BRITAIN-FILM-ATKINSON\" width=\"450\" height=\"287\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Mr-Bean-say-what.jpg 450w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Mr-Bean-say-what-300x191.jpg 300w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Mr-Bean-say-what-420x268.jpg 420w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Mr-Bean-say-what-90x57.jpg 90w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 450px) 100vw, 450px\" \/>I have no doubt that some of my <strong>Catholic philosopher friends<\/strong> will have something to say here, but right now,<strong> I don&#8217;t see any way forward<\/strong>. The point of making a distinction (in subject, copula, or predicate) in &#8220;Jesus has faith&#8221; is to distinguish two different claims, one true and the other false. But there <strong>doesn&#8217;t appear at hand any intelligible distinction to make<\/strong>. So the move looks <em>ad hoc<\/em>, motivated only by a desire to save one&#8217;s theory that Jesus has the divine nature, in the face of NT testimony to Jesus&#8217;s faith, and the obvious truth that God (or just: any omnipotent and omniscient being) has no need of faith in God. It <strong>doesn&#8217;t give an understandable response<\/strong> to the argument at the top of this post, but at best hints that there is a distinction to be made <em>somewhere<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p>Yes, I&#8217;m well aware of the <a title=\"traditional arguments that Jesus is divine\" href=\"http:\/\/plato.stanford.edu\/entries\/trinity\/trinity-history.html#NewTes\" target=\"_blank\">traditional arguments for Jesus having a\/the divine nature<\/a>. But those are another post. (Or series&#8230; or book!)<\/p>\n<p><a href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/did-jesus-have-faith-in-god-part-5\/\"><em>Next time: Mr. Gilson stands his ground.<\/em><\/a><\/p>\n<p><em>(Here\u2019s <a href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?s=%22Did+Jesus+have+faith+in+God%3F%22\">a link to all five of my posts <\/a>in this series.)<\/em><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Jesus qua man had faith, but qua God lacked faith?<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":6930,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"neve_meta_sidebar":"","neve_meta_container":"","neve_meta_enable_content_width":"","neve_meta_content_width":0,"neve_meta_title_alignment":"","neve_meta_author_avatar":"","neve_post_elements_order":"","neve_meta_disable_header":"","neve_meta_disable_footer":"","neve_meta_disable_title":"","footnotes":""},"categories":[37,21,15,58,33,10],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-6929","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-apologetics","category-bible","category-christology","category-creeds","category-incarnation","category-logic"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/6929","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=6929"}],"version-history":[{"count":3,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/6929\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":37820,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/6929\/revisions\/37820"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/6930"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=6929"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=6929"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=6929"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}