{"id":6989,"date":"2014-12-29T21:01:29","date_gmt":"2014-12-30T02:01:29","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?p=6989"},"modified":"2019-07-09T22:50:13","modified_gmt":"2019-07-10T02:50:13","slug":"podcast-68-dr-harriet-baber-on-relative-identity-and-the-trinity","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-68-dr-harriet-baber-on-relative-identity-and-the-trinity\/","title":{"rendered":"podcast 68 &#8211; Dr. Harriet Baber on Relative Identity and the Trinity"},"content":{"rendered":"<div class=\"powerpress_player\" id=\"powerpress_player_1030\"><audio class=\"wp-audio-shortcode\" id=\"audio-6989-1\" preload=\"none\" style=\"width: 100%;\" controls=\"controls\"><source type=\"audio\/mpeg\" src=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities068.mp3?_=1\" \/><a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities068.mp3\">http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities068.mp3<\/a><\/audio><\/div><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_links_mp3\" style=\"margin-bottom: 1px !important;\">Podcast: <a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities068.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_pinw\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Play in new window\" onclick=\"return powerpress_pinw('https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?powerpress_pinw=6989-podcast');\" rel=\"nofollow\">Play in new window<\/a> | <a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities068.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_d\" title=\"Download\" rel=\"nofollow\" download=\"trinities068.mp3\">Download<\/a><\/p><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_subscribe_links\">Subscribe: <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/7FuUF9DZM3zhtN41n6RJ6l\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_spotify\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe on Spotify\" rel=\"nofollow\">Spotify<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/subscribebyemail.com\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_email\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe by Email\" rel=\"nofollow\">Email<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_rss\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe via RSS\" rel=\"nofollow\">RSS<\/a><\/p><p><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignleft wp-image-7002\" src=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Saint-Peter1.jpg\" alt=\"Saint Peter\" width=\"196\" height=\"422\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Saint-Peter1.jpg 232w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Saint-Peter1-139x300.jpg 139w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Saint-Peter1-90x194.jpg 90w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 196px) 100vw, 196px\" \/>&#8220;I\u2019ve heard of John and Peter, and James &#8211; but <strong><a title=\"this episode on youtube\" href=\"http:\/\/youtu.be\/wU4hRbOBMIQ\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">who is this Cephas<\/a>?<\/strong>&#8221;<\/p>\n<p>A more informed Bible reader will tell him that Cephas is <strong>Peter<\/strong>.\u00a0The point is not that Cephas is <em>like<\/em> Peter, or<em> similar to<\/em> Peter, but rather that Cephas <em>just is<\/em> Peter &#8211; they are the <strong>same man<\/strong>. They are <em>numerically<\/em> the same man.<\/p>\n<p>In the sort of logic which is standardly taught in introductory courses, one analyzes the claim <strong>&#8220;Cephas and Peter are the same man&#8221;<\/strong> as a conjunction of three claims:<\/p>\n<ul>\n<li>Cephas is a man, and<\/li>\n<li>Peter is a man, and<\/li>\n<li>Cephas just is Peter.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p>Standardly, then, relative identity statements are understood in terms of absolute, or non-relative identity statements.<\/p>\n<p>But not all philosophers agree. The<strong> famous logician <a title=\"Peter Geach - In Memorium\" href=\"http:\/\/leiterreports.typepad.com\/blog\/2013\/12\/in-memoriam-peter-geach-1917-2013.html\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Peter Geach<\/a><\/strong><a title=\"Peter Geach - In Memorium\" href=\"http:\/\/leiterreports.typepad.com\/blog\/2013\/12\/in-memoriam-peter-geach-1917-2013.html\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">\u00a0(1916-2013)<\/a> thought that absolute statements are meaningless &#8211; that it makes no sense to ask whether or not Cephas and Peter are the same (full stop). We can, however, ask whether or not they\u2019re the same man, apostle, brother, animal, citizen, etc. So for Peter Geach, relative identity statements are basic, and can\u2019t be broken down into the three components we just explained, because, he thought, the third component was meaningless.<img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignright wp-image-6996\" src=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Peter-Geach.jpg\" alt=\"Peter Geach\" width=\"401\" height=\"269\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Peter-Geach.jpg 541w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Peter-Geach-300x201.jpg 300w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Peter-Geach-420x282.jpg 420w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Peter-Geach-460x309.jpg 460w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Peter-Geach-90x60.jpg 90w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 401px) 100vw, 401px\" \/><\/p>\n<p>This\u00a0opens up the question<strong> whether or not some a and b could be the same F, but different Gs<\/strong>. Could, for instance, Cephas and Peter be the same man, but different apostles, or different husbands, or different citizens? It would seem not. In fact, there has been no uncontroversial case of some a and b being the same something, but different somethings elses. While various metaphysical puzzles have moved a few philosophers to posit such cases, in each case a majority of philosophers thinks that the puzzle in question has a better solution. Still, the matter remains controversial, and in today\u2019s episode, you\u2019ll hear an accomplished philosopher suggest<strong> another non-theological case<\/strong> of being the same F but different Gs &#8211; one having to do with air travel.<\/p>\n<p>The most important puzzle-case motivating this non-standard view\u00a0relative identity is that of the Trinity. <strong>Peter Geach thought that the traditional Trinity claims will only be self-consistent if relative identity is basic, <em>not<\/em> analyzable as above<\/strong>. Here, the Father and Son will be the<strong> same God, but different divine Persons<\/strong>. And since the threefold analysis of relative identity statements is rejected, it won\u2019t follow that the Father just is the Son.<\/p>\n<p><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignleft wp-image-6997\" src=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/baber-presenting-IMAG0575-e1419875246756-491x1024.jpg\" alt=\"baber presenting IMAG0575\" width=\"229\" height=\"478\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/baber-presenting-IMAG0575-e1419875246756-491x1024.jpg 491w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/baber-presenting-IMAG0575-e1419875246756-144x300.jpg 144w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/baber-presenting-IMAG0575-e1419875246756-420x876.jpg 420w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/baber-presenting-IMAG0575-e1419875246756-460x960.jpg 460w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/baber-presenting-IMAG0575-e1419875246756-90x188.jpg 90w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/baber-presenting-IMAG0575-e1419875246756.jpg 990w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 229px) 100vw, 229px\" \/>In <a title=\"trinities podcast episode 68 on youtube\" href=\"http:\/\/youtu.be\/wU4hRbOBMIQ\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">today\u2019s episode<\/a>, we hear <strong>a presentation from the 2014 SCP meeting at Niagara University, in Niagara New York<\/strong>. This conference was dedicated to the work of distinguished Christian philosopher Dr. Peter van Inwagen, of the University of Notre Dame.<\/p>\n<p>Our presenter is <strong>Dr. Harriet Baber<\/strong>, a professor of philosophy at the University of San Diego.\u00a0Her presentation is <strong>&#8220;Relative Identity Redux.&#8221;<\/strong> In it, she\u00a0criticizes some work on this topic by Dr. Michael C. Rea. This episode includes\u00a0the discussion period, in which she fields some interesting questions from Dr. van Inwagen and others.<\/p>\n<p><a title=\"trinities podcast episode 68 on youtube\" href=\"http:\/\/youtu.be\/wU4hRbOBMIQ\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\"><strong>I recommend that you\u00a0watch the youtube version of this talk<\/strong><\/a>, because it includes Dr. Baber\u2019s helpful and entertaining powerpoint slides, which will help you to follow her points, especially if you\u2019re not a professional philosopher. (There are also other visual elements added by me, mostly for clarity.)<\/p>\n<p>You can also <strong>listen t<\/strong><strong>o this episode on<\/strong>\u00a0<strong><a title=\"trinities podcast @ stitcher\" href=\"http:\/\/www.stitcher.com\/s?fid=54067&amp;refid=stpr\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">stitcher<\/a><\/strong>\u00a0or <strong><a title=\"trinities @ itunes\" href=\"https:\/\/itunes.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/id690304581?mt=2&amp;uo=4&amp;at=11l5XS\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">itunes<\/a><\/strong>\u00a0(please subscribe and rate us in either or both).\u00a0 If you would like to\u00a0<strong>upload audio feedback<\/strong> for possible inclusion in a future episode of this podcast,\u00a0<a title=\"upload audio feedback for the trinities podcast here\" href=\"http:\/\/www.mediafire.com\/filedrop\/filedrop_hosted.php?drop=96df5ea43b9b7c6582cb95b8c5a7259d7cd8109e0cd009d4a5ecd099cc7e64fb\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">put the audio file here<\/a>.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Links for this episode<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<ul>\n<li><strong><a title=\"H.E. Baber home page\" href=\"http:\/\/home.sandiego.edu\/~baber\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Dr. Harriet Baber&#8217;s homepage<\/a><\/strong>\n<ul>\n<li><a title=\"H.E. Baber home page\" href=\"http:\/\/www.sandiego.edu\/cas\/about_the_college\/faculty\/biography.php?ID=199\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">her University of San Diego page<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a title=\"Harriet Baber at PhilPapers\" href=\"http:\/\/philpapers.org\/s\/Harriet%20Baber\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">her writings at PhilPapers<\/a><\/li>\n<li><strong><a title=\"Harriet Baber on the Trinity, Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy\" href=\"http:\/\/www.iep.utm.edu\/trinity\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">her &#8220;Trinity&#8221; entry<\/a><\/strong> in the <em>Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy<\/em> (and <a title=\"Relative Identity and the Trinity - from Dr. Baber's &quot;Trinity&quot;\" href=\"http:\/\/www.iep.utm.edu\/trinity\/#SH3D\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">here is the Relative Identity portion<\/a>)<\/li>\n<li><a title=\"Harriet Baber, H.E. Baber - The Multicultural Mystique: The Liberal Case Against Diversity\" href=\"http:\/\/astore.amazon.com\/trinities-20\/detail\/B003UTUNW8\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\"><em>The Multicultural Mystique: The Liberal Case Against Diversity<\/em><\/a><\/li>\n<li><a title=\"Harriet Baber columns at The Guardian\" href=\"http:\/\/www.theguardian.com\/profile\/hebaber\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Dr. Baber&#8217;s columns for <em>The Guardian<\/em><\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<li><a title=\"ad hoc and other philosophical terms explained by Jim Pryor\" href=\"http:\/\/www.jimpryor.net\/teaching\/vocab\/glossary.html\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\"><em>ad hoc<\/em> objections explained<\/a> by philosopher Jim Pryor<\/li>\n<li><a title=\"Peter van Inwagen home page\" href=\"http:\/\/www3.nd.edu\/~mrea\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Dr. Michael C. Rea<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a title=\"Peter van Inwagen home page\" href=\"http:\/\/philosophy.nd.edu\/people\/faculty\/peter-van-inwagen\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Dr. Peter van Inwagen&#8217;s home page<\/a>\n<ul>\n<li><a title=\"Andrew Bailey's page of Peter van Inwagen's papers\" href=\"http:\/\/andrewmbailey.com\/pvi\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">many of his papers, collected by Dr. Andrew Bailey<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<li><a title=\"Trinity, Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy\" href=\"http:\/\/plato.stanford.edu\/entries\/trinity\/#RelIde\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Dale Tuggy on relative identity approaches to the Trinity<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a title=\"posts about the work of Dr. Harriet Baber on the Trinity\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?s=baber\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">previous posts about Dr. Baber&#8217;s work at trinities<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>A presentation by Dr. Harriet Baber at the 2014 SCP meeting at Niagara University.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":6995,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"neve_meta_sidebar":"","neve_meta_container":"","neve_meta_enable_content_width":"","neve_meta_content_width":0,"neve_meta_title_alignment":"","neve_meta_author_avatar":"","neve_post_elements_order":"","neve_meta_disable_header":"","neve_meta_disable_footer":"","neve_meta_disable_title":"","footnotes":""},"categories":[37,10,47,9,57,3],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-6989","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-apologetics","category-logic","category-papers","category-philosophy","category-podcast","category-theories"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/6989","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=6989"}],"version-history":[{"count":4,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/6989\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":41491,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/6989\/revisions\/41491"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/6995"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=6989"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=6989"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=6989"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}