In this wide-ranging conversation I share my post-debate thoughts on my recent debate with Chris Date, and we also discuss various topics relating to the deity of Christ, doctrines of two natures, and the Trinity in relation to the Bible. Among other things he asks me about the charge of “assuming unitarianism,” how I understand John 17:3.
Also, I explain why Chris Date’s answers re: omniscience vs. limited knowledge simply reinforce my argument that “two natures” theories either eliminate the real man Jesus or they feature at least one too many selves (the man and also the “divine nature,” understood as a self).
Thanks to Andrew for a good interview! For more of his work in apologetics, visit beginningwisdom.org.
If you missed it, here is his earlier post-debate interview with Chris Date.
In the interview, Andrew makes much of Jesus being portrayed as “cloud rider” in the New Testament echoes of Daniel 7, where the one like a son of man is seen coming on clouds and approaching the Ancient of Days. Andrew reasons that since in the Old Testament the imagery of riding on the clouds is only used of Yahweh (leaving aside Daniel 7, which he and Dale disagree over) and was used of ancient near eastern deities like Baal, therefore we should think that when such imagery is applied to Jesus it is signalling that he is divine, i.e. Yahweh.
Andrew should read J. R Daniel Kirk’s book “A Man Attested by God: The Human Jesus of the Synoptic Gospels” for an impressive demolition of the sort of reasoning he currently finds persuasive.
In Revelation 11:12, the two witnesses (who are not Yahweh or symbols for Yahweh – would Andrew disagree?) ascend to heaven in a cloud. So it appears that the writer of Revelation didn’t think that travel with the clouds always signified deity.
If it is replied that the two witnesses in Revelation travel “in” a cloud and that this is surely something different from travelling “on” the clouds, compare Matthew 24:30 (“on the clouds”) and Mark 13:26 (“in clouds”). Since Matthew and Mark render Jesus’ prediction – the same prediction in parallel passages – these different ways, it would seem the evangelists didn’t recognise any important distinction between coming “in” or “on” clouds.
In the light of this, surely we have no grounds for saying that Jesus’ being “cloud rider” shows that he is Yahweh.
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