In “How Jesus’ Not Having Faith In God Affirms His Deity” at the Thinking Christian blog, Tom Gilson argues that the New Testament, by not teaching that Jesus had faith in God, implies that Jesus is God himself. Thus, even the synoptic gospels implicitly teach that Jesus is God.
Here, I’ll comment on his first post in the series; next time, his second post.
In part Mr. Gilson says (emphases added)
…didn’t Jesus have the greatest faith ever known?
No, he didn’t, at least not according to the Gospels. Jesus uses the word “faith” 41 times in the Gospels (English Standard Version), and in every case he was speaking of someone else’s faith (or lack of it). He never used the term in the first person, speaking of his own faith. No other writer in the Bible spoke of Jesus’ faith, either.
Contrast that with Paul, for whom faith was definitely a first-person experience..
Again,
…the Bible tells us Jesus is God incarnate. While it might make sense for you or me to speak of having faith in ourselves, it’s absurd to think of God as having faith in himself. We talk of faith in ourselves because we know there’s reason sometimes to doubt. God knows there is never reason in himself to doubt.
When we trust in God, we trust in another, who has promised to act on our behalf in accord with his character and his promises. Jesus doesn’t look to God to act on his behalf.
… The only way that makes sense is if he thought he was exempt from the need for faith; and the only way any person could be exempt from the need to trust in God would be if that person were God.
I want to argue that Mr. Gilson is mistaken. First, I’m going to just state and then lay aside the important point that his reading of the New Testament is incoherent, because if Jesus and God are one and the same, they can’t differ – but the New Testament assumes and asserts them to have differed in many ways. I’ll stick to this point: the gospels don’t need to say that Jesus had faith in God, because they clearly portray Jesus’s faith in God. Yes, he is a main object of faith in the New Testament.But he’s also a hero of faith, an exemplar of faith, a man who trusted God to the utmost, indeed, to and through his own death
First, all prayer requires faith in God – that he exists, and that he hears and answers prayer. Jesus prayed. You see his great faith most notably in his prayer at Gethsemane. Terrified of the fate he’s believes that God has ordained, yet knowing that God hears and answer his requests, he asks God to be spared. The reader is to infer that either God declined to answer, or he said no, and that Jesus accepts this answer, trusting God. He acts with courage and resolve at his trials.
Second, Hebrews 12 implicitly but very clearly asserts that Jesus is a model of faith for us. And note that it comes and the end of big list of heroes of faith – Jesus is the capstone of that list.
Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight and the sin that clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus the pioneer and perfecter of our faith, who for the sake of the joy that was set before him endured the cross, disregarding its shame, and has taken his seat at the right hand of the throne of God. (Hebrews 12:1-2, NRSV)
He’s the pioneer, the trailblazer whom we are to follow in the path of faith.
Before and while it was occurring, Jesus’s crucifixion seemed like a gigantic, horrible, humiliating, embarrassing, painful loss to Jesus – loss of his life, his ministry, his privacy, his dignity, his family, his friends, his hopes. But he trusted in God through it all, never cursing his fate, his God, or his enemies, but expecting God’s vindication – which at the time was nowhere in sight. Mark 15:34 says that he prays Psalm 22 from the cross. (Read the rest of it.) He must have focused on what he had before heard from God, that he would be raised and exalted on the third day. “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit!” (Luke 23:46) Those are words of faith. This whole death is the greatest example of faith, not a picture of a being (perfect, self-sufficient God) who has no need of faith. We are to follow Jesus in that sort of faith, which we see the apostles doing, in all but one case, to their own premature death.
I’m sure there are other passages we could discuss as well, like Philippians 2; but it seems to me that these two are sufficient.
Next time: his second post. (Here’s a link to all five of my posts in this series.)
[If Trinitarians deny Jesus came in the ‘flesh’ they would be AntiChrist. Further the claim that he was 100% human and 100% God. So to be 100% human requires 100% faith!]
These trinitarian sites acknowledges that Jesus had faith.
— Extract from https://carm.org/did-jesus-have-faith
“But then if Jesus had all knowledge and knew everything, could even have faith? Actually, we need to ask whether or not Jesus was, so to speak, accessing the divine attribute of omniscience as he walked this earth. It seems from Philippians 2:5-8 that Jesus had emptied himself and was cooperating with the limitations of being a man. what this means exactly we do not know.
But, in Luke 2:52 Jesus increased in wisdom and stature.
So, there was a sense in which Jesus was not accessing the full attributes of divinity which includes divine omniscience.
*** We do not understand completely how this works but he was, after all, ***
made under the law (Galatians 4:4).
So, we can conclude that as a man, Jesus was cooperating with limitations of being a man, and he probably would have had faith in the work and plan of God the Father.
So, Jesus acted on that belief and trust in God the Father as he went about daily doing his Father’s business.” https://carm.org/did-jesus-have-faith
======================================================
—-Another Extract from
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://epreacher.org/ask/ask07-31-04.html&gws_rd=cr&ei=HGP3V_m6FIXxvgSPgJKwAQ
Another Trinitarian bears witness to Jesus’ faith as essential:
“But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God through the faith of Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God… (Rom 3:21-23)”
Most translations translate this, “through faith in Christ Jesus” which is an interpretation rather than a translation. The phrase is literally “through the faith of Jesus Christ.” Translators who translate this “faith in Jesus” interpret the “of” to refer to our faith in Christ rather than the faith that Christ had.
If the faith Paul is speaking of is the faith we are to have in Jesus, then the subsequent phrase is redundant. In Greek, the redundancy is even more glaring. While we do not have a verb form for the word, “faith” and have to use the verb, “believe,” Greek does not have that problem. Pistis (faith), pistos (faithful) and pisteo (to believe) are all derived from the same root: “pist”. Let me illustrate the redunancy in English using the word “believe” rather than faith, “even the righteousness of God through belief in Jesus Christ for all those who believe…” See the redundancy? So, the “faith of Christ” is referring to the faith that Jesus Christ had. Because of his faith, he was loyal and obedient to God, which brought salvation to us who believe. Without the faith of Christ, which led to his obedience, our faith is meaningless.
This sheds some light on Romans 1:17.
“For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “But the righteous man shall live by faith (Rom 1:16-17).”
What does the phrase, “from faith to faith” mean? In light of the passage from Romans 3, the first “faith” is probably referring to the faith of Christ. The second one is probably referring to our own faith. Both are involved in our salvation. Both are involved in revealing the righteousness of God. It was the faith of Christ that led him to the cross in trusting obedience.
Now, one might think this is just an isolated verse that uses this phrase. But this is not the only passage that uses the phrase, “faith of Christ.” Here are some others.
“… nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through the faith of Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified (Gal 2:16).”
“But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by the faith of Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe (Gal 3:22).”
“… and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith, (Phil 3:9).”
Righteousness comes ultimately through the faith of Christ to those of us who have faith. But what of our faith? Does the phrase, “faith of Christ” negate the necessity for our own faith? Not at all. There are several passages that explicitly call for us to have faith “in” Christ Jesus in order to be saved.
“I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me (Gal 2:20).”
“For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus (Gal 3:26).”
Unlike the passages above, which do not use the preposition, “in,” these verses explicitly use “in” (“en” in Greek), which indicates our faith in Christ.
There are some other passages that strongly imply that Jesus had to live by faith.
“Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives. For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham. Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. For since He Himself was tempted in that which He has suffered, He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted (Heb 2:14-18).”
Jesus “shared in flesh and blood.” The word “shared” is the same word also translated, “fellowship” or “participation.” Jesus “fellowshipped” in our flesh and blood. He “participated” in our humanity. He entered into the human experience, which involved among other things temptation. The story of the temptations of Christ in Matthew 3 records real temptations. If they were not, then Jesus really didn’t participate in our humanity. If he didn’t participate in our humanity, then he really didn’t defeat death (1 Cor 15). However, if he truly walked in our shoes, then it stands to reason that in his humanity that he willingly took on, he had to live by faith. That is why the Bible also tells us this.
“For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin (Heb 4:15).”
The result of all of this was that through his faith, he overcame temptation, procured forgiveness at the cross, and is now able to be a “merciful and faithful high priest.”
The Gospel of John tells us that Jesus became “flesh” in John 1:14. “Flesh” in does not refer only to the physical body. It is typically used of our humanity. Paul speaks of our “flesh” being at war with the Spirit in Romans 7. This is another way of saying what the writer of Hebrews did. Jesus truly shared in our humanity. He was beset with weakness (Heb 5:2). That weakness is what made temptation real and not just an illusion. He truly entered into human experience. It wasn’t until he entered the human experience that he was “perfected.” Notice this passage.
“Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered. And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation (Heb 5:8-9),”
Jesus wasn’t “perfected” as our High Priest until he overcame his suffering. He didn’t become a merciful and faithful high priest until he participated in our humanity. As a human, he experience real temptations and real emotions. This comes through especially in the following passage.
“Now from the sixth hour darkness fell upon all the land until the ninth hour. About the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, ‘Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?’ that is, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me (Matt 27:45-46)?”
Many have tried to explain this theologically. The explanations usually have something to do with God literally turning his back on Jesus. These sorts of explanations are nothing more than conjectures.
To forsake means to “abandon” or “leave.” Did God abandon Jesus? Does God abandon anyone that is faithful? The whole of scripture says no. God does not forsake the righteous.
In fact scripture explicitly says that God did not abandon Jesus to Hades.
“Because You will not abandon my soul to Hades, Nor allow Your Holy One to undergo decay (Acts 2:27).”
So, if God did not truly abandon Jesus, why did he cry out in this way? Instead of a theological explanation, I propose a human explanation. This is actually a quotation from the 22nd Psalm. It is a Psalm of anguish. The Psalmist “feels” as if God has abandoned him. However, he knows that God is faithful and will hear the cries of the afflicted. The conclusion of the Psalm shows that the Psalmist knows God is faithful. Even though he “feels” alone, he knows he is not alone.
As Jesus hung on the cross, a Psalm he must have heard and used in song and worship comes to his lips. Jesus is truly struggling as he struggled in the Garden of Gethsemane when he prayed to God (Matt 26:39ff). Jesus had to muster his faith. He didn’t fail. He was obedient to the point of death. But he still had to muster his faith.
Did Jesus have to live by faith? The weight of all of this evidence says yes.
Before closing, I want to deal with one last thing in what you elder had said. According to what you had written me, he said,
“Jesus is God and knows all things therefore faith is not apart of who He is. He understand, as well as I do, that when we die faith and hope will be no more because we will be in the presents of God. ”
I need to remind you that knowledge and faith are not one and the same. You can know all things and still not truly have faith. The Bible says that “even the demons believe and shudder (Jas 2:19).” You can “know” something yet not have faith. According to James 2:14ff, Faith involves more than mental agreement. It also involves trust and obedience..
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Great Post:
Here are few verses / thoughts that demonstrate the trust/faith the human Jesus put on his Eternal God and Father:
1.] I will put my trust in him.”
The writer to Hebrews state:
Heb 2:13 And again, “I will put my trust in him.”
The above quote from ? shows a Jesus who trusts in God
2.] “I have set Yahweh always before me”
Psa 16:8 I have set Yahweh always before me. Because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved.
Psa 16:9 Therefore my heart is glad, and my tongue rejoices. My body shall also dwell in safety.
Psa 16:10 For you will not leave my soul in Sheol,neither will you allow your holy one to see corruption.
3.] David and Jesus’ enemies spoke of his faith in God:
Psa 22:8 “He trusts in the LORD; let him deliver him; let him rescue him, for he delights in him!”
v/s
Mathew 27:43 He trusts in God; let God deliver him now, if he desires him.
4. Again:
Psa 22:19 But don’t be far off, Yahweh. You are my help: hurry to help me.
5.] Again:
Psa 22:2 My God, I cry in the daytime, but you don’t answer; in the night season, and am not silent.
Psa 22:3 But you are holy, you who inhabit the praises of Israel.
Psa 22:4 Our fathers trusted in you. They trusted, and you delivered them.
Psa 22:5 They cried to you, and were delivered. They trusted in you, and were not disappointed.
Psa 22:6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised by the people.
Psa 22:7 All those who see me mock me. They insult me with their lips. They shake their heads, saying,
In effect ‘Our fathers trusted in you.’ <— this works
Therefore Jesus also follows their example of success!
6.] Jesus’ statement of Faith:
Psa 22:28 For the kingdom is Yahweh’s. He is the ruler over the nations.
Psa 22:22 I will declare your name to my brothers. Among the assembly, I will praise you.
Psa 22:23 You who fear Yahweh, praise him! All you descendants of Jacob, glorify him! Stand in awe of him, all you descendants of Israel!
7.] Another example Jesus' feelings of faith and trust and his relationship with his God:
Psa 69:16 Answer me, Yahweh, for your loving kindness is good. According to the multitude of your tender mercies, turn to me.
Psa 69:17 Don’t hide your face from your servant, for I am in distress. Answer me speedily!
Psa 69:18 Draw near to my soul, and redeem it. Ransom me because of my enemies.
Psa 69:19 You know my reproach, my shame, and my dishonor. My adversaries are all before you.
Psa 69:20 Reproach has broken my heart, and I am full of heaviness. I looked for some to take pity, but there was none; for comforters, but I found none.
Psa 69:21 They also gave me gall for my food. In my thirst, they gave me vinegar to drink.
8.] “As for me”
Psa 69:13 But as for me, my prayer is to you, Yahweh, in an acceptable time. God, in the abundance of your loving kindness, answer me in the truth of your salvation.
9.] Jesus was shamed as part of the continuing pattern of the persecution of the righteousness since the time Abel:
Psa 69:7 Because for your sake, I have borne reproach. Shame has covered my face.
Yet he demonstrated trust in his life:
[1Pe 2:23 Who, when he was cursed, didn’t curse back. When he suffered, didn’t threaten, but ***committed*** himself to him who judges righteously.]
10.] Jesus was the real son of God and 'he learned obedience'
Hebrews 5:8 Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered
— Does a God learn obedience?
— The trials he was faced with perfected Jesus in the WORK of salvation.
— Even though he was God’s son he was not pampered but tossed into a life of poverty and was tried by his enemies
— But,Jesus did not rebel when challenged
11.] Prayers of Jesus demonstrate faith and trust. (Did Jesus fake all is prayers?)
Luke 22:44 And being in anguish, he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground.
a. One God of the Trinity is in Anguish? Humans pray to God but do the members of the Godhead pray to each other?
b. Does the resurrected Jesus still do his daily prayers?
c. Does the resurrected Jesus go off to mountain tops to pray to his Father?
d. Does the resurrected Jesus fast for 40 days and 40 nights?
Jesus "Pray that you may not enter into temptation.” Prayer was the Jesus' weapon to overcome the world according to the will of his God!
"Why are you sleeping? Rise and pray that you may not enter into temptation.”
If Jesus was was himself in Anguish – how did he overcome? PRAYER!
Jesus weapon as a mortal was his prayer.
At this point he struggled in the flesh to default ("Not my will"l) but took the matter to God for resolution.
Jesus had to have trust/faith in YWWH God to deliver him from the grave b'cos for 3 days he would cease to exist!
Many Christians sing this song to Jesus
“Oh, what needless pain we bear,?All because we do not carry?Everything to God in prayer!”
But Jesus himself prayed to his God and Father when he was troubled and in distress
12.] Jesus who marvelled at peer faith!
Luk 7:9 When Jesus heard these things, he marvelled at him, and turned him about, and said unto the people that followed him, I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
The centre of Jesus’ life was faith and therefore he greatly rejoiced when he found a ‘like’ minded man.
‘He marvelled’? Was he just pretending not to know though his divine nature revealed it him?
13.] A God in trouble?
Joh 12:27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.
A God whose soul is troubled? Jesus is “ omniscient & omnipotent” yet is troubled? Why is he so sad and troubled? This shows Jesus was human and shared OUR feelings! Yet he emerged victorious on account of his faith!
Was not Jesus the one who taught us not be anxious.
Jesus was frank – Amazing.
Great people suffer from great EGO, but look at our Jesus, he does not pretend, he does not deny and he has the GUTS/LOVE to share his feelings with his loved ones!
This is foundation message of Christianity i.e. Jesus is our example of faith.
As a man he showed faith in his God!
Jesus had faith and therefore taught thus about faith:
Mat 17:19 Then the disciples came to Jesus privately, and said, “Why weren’t we able to cast it out?”
Mat 17:20 He said to them, “Because of your unbelief. For most certainly I tell you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will tell this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move; and nothing will be impossible for you.
Mat 17:21 But this kind doesn’t go out except by prayer and fasting.”
Only God was able to save Jesus and therefore Jesus relied upon his God to save him!
14.] Jesus' faith testified by his prayers
Hebrews 5:7 tells us, “In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to the one who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission”
Why?
[1Pe 3:12 For the eyes of the Lord(YHWH) are on the righteous, and his ears open to their prayer; but the face of the Lord is against those who do evil.”]
15.] Finally a different Christmas story – How a man attains Divinity:
Php 2:8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
Php 2:9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name,
Php 2:10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
Php 2:11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Jesus attained divinity by trusting his God even to the point of death. No man can be tested beyond death and Jesus was tested to the point of death and emerged victorious. Disciples like Stephen whom they stoned showed like faith!
“who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.” Heb 12:2
I.e. Jesus also saw beyond the grave 'joy that was set before him'
Jesus was the blameless man that God was looking for. (Jesus was not blameless through a divine nature)
– His death showed forth absolute faith and obedience.
– He becomes a supreme example for the human race.
– His death redeems and brings eternal life because of ‘his way of life’ i.e. his example of faith and love and hope is the basis God accepts people. (Contrast with Adam's way of disobedience)
Silas,
Great selection of verses. I especially like Hebrews 5:7 where it indicates that Jesus was trusting God the Father even to “save him from death.” What could be a greater example of faith and trust?
“the gospels don’t need to say that Jesus had faith in God, because they clearly portray Jesus’s faith in God.” And yet you unitarians claim it has to explicitly state trintiarianism. Our response is “the gospels don’t need to say Jesus is the second person of a trinity, because they clearly portray that he is.”
Wow! I’m scratching my head. Where does it portray anywhere in the Bible that he is a second person of the Trinity? I thought that didn’t come around until the 4th century?
Montjoie,
I don’t make that claim. However, there are some non-Trinitarians who naively suggest that everything must be “explicitly stated” and that is not good.
Hi Montjoie – Actually, they both imply it and explicitly say it. More details here: https://trinities.org/blog/podcast-146-jesus-exemplar-faith-new-testament/ See the linked slides for the passages. BTW you wont’t catch any sophisticated unitarian insisting that no doctrine is taught in the NT unless it is explicitly taught there. e.g. divine omniscience. *Clear* implications are just as strongly asserted as explicit statements. That’s the difference between the cases. Jesus’ faith in God was understood right away. But the tripersonal God idea shows up for the first time in the 4th c. If it were clear, you’d see it in early 2nd c.
Montjoie,
I don’t require that Trinitarians find an explicit statement that there is a Triune God. However, I also don’t think the biblical evidence suggests that Jesus or the apostles were trying to portray God that way.
Hi Rivers,
Thanks.
I explored the origin of Jesus’ faith a bit further.
Origin of Jesus’ faith
Human beings exhibit varying degrees of faith. Jesus encouraged his followers to develop faith through numerous parables, teachings and miracles.
To understand the origin of Jesus’ faith let us consider few other human examples.
Moses
______
Moses was destined to be special. His birth is described thus:
Act 7:20 At this time Moses was born; and he was beautiful in God’s sight. And he was brought up for three months in his father’s house,
I.e. Moses was chosen at birth to be God’s mediator at the right time.
John the Baptist
——————-
John was influenced from the time he was formed in the womb:
Luk 1:15 for he will be great before the Lord. And he must not drink wine or strong drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother’s womb.
Luk 1:44 For behold, when the sound of your greeting came to my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy.
Now if we consider Jesus
________________________
Jesus was likewise destined to be great being the direct son of God:
Luk 1:32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High.
Jesus was called and chosen by God and his faith had origin from the womb that developed and we find at the age of 12 he fully knew his identity but his time was not yet:
Psa 22:9 Yet you are he who took me from the womb; you made me trust you at my mother’s breasts.
Psa 22:10 On you was I cast from my birth, and from my mother’s womb you have been my God.
Another example:
______________
Psa 71:5 For you, O Lord, are my hope, my trust, O LORD, from my youth.
Psa 71:6 Upon you I have leaned from before my birth; you are he who took me from my mother’s womb. My praise is continually of you.
Early development /childhood
____________________________
John:
——
Again we will compare Jesus’ early development with that of John:
Luk 1:80 And the child grew and became strong in spirit, and he was in the wilderness until the day of his public appearance to Israel.
Jesus
——-
Luk 2:52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and in stature and in favor with God and man.
God’s good hand was upon Jesus as he grew and developed into a man.
(I’m not promoting predestination but how God was with these great men from the womb to change the course of history)
Another angle: One who is of faith is called faithful
That is Jesus was faithful in the task that was assigned to him. Jesus was faithful as Moses was faithful earlier as a mediator.
Heb 3:1 Therefore, holy brothers, you who share in a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the apostle and high priest of our confession,
Heb 3:2 who was ***faithful*** to him who appointed him, ***just*** as Moses also was ***faithful*** in all God’s house.
Silas Z,
Good points. 🙂
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Pär,
You have been kind to Campbell. The man is rude. From the body language of those on the panel, as well as Wright’s comments, it was clear that none of the other dialoguers were enjoying his bad attitude.
Anyway, no, I’m not a Wrightian. Dunnian instead. Wright is in my mind too wish-driven on quite a few things, particularly his rather vague approach and inconsistent approach to his Christology. Wright wants to worship Christ as God, so I think he should be left to do so. His shoe-horning scripture into proving it is just painful.
😉
Par,
I understand what you are trying to say.
However, many people translate Romans 1:17 as “from faith to faith” because the rest of the verse says “the righteous man will live by his faith.” This gives me the impression that Paul was referring to the faith of the “Jews and Greeks” in the immediate context (Romans 1:16) and not to Jesus Christ himself.
Pär:
I have to agree that a very good case can be made for the subjective genitive “faithfulness of Jesus Christ”, esp. in Romans and Galatians. This ties in very nicely with the obedience theme in the NT.
For those who haven’t yet but would like to delve into this issue a bit more, you might enjoy Richard’s Hay’s study “The Faith of Jesus Christ: The Narrrative Substructure of Galatians 3:1 – 4:11”. Another book that might be helpful is “The Faith of Jesus Christ: Exegetical, Biblical, and Theological Studies”, edited by Michael F. Bird and Preston M. Sprinkle.
~Sean
Rivers:
Of course it is a grammatical interpretation, so is the objective genitive. If anything, if the phrase was used in isolation the subjective reading would probably seem more natural. But context determines meaning, and the context in the overall theme of Romans has to do with the vindication of God’s faithful acting through the faith of Messiah, resulting in benefits for those who believe. From faithfulness to faithfulness (Rom 1:17) 🙂 It is not as if I, unlike you, are striving for a reading not rooted in the context and flow of though from the author.
“What then? If some were faithless, will their faithlessness cancel out God’s faithfulness? May it never be!” (Romans 3:3, my translation) How then, Paul, will God remain faithful to his covenant and its promise and yet remin just? On the basis of the faith of Jesus, who represents Israel and through his faih brings forth the blessings promised to the world, that was meant to come by way of the faithful Israel.
In the Jesus event God’s justice is displayed for all, Jew and Gentile alike. Jesus, the righteous one lived faithfully and was resurrected by means of his faithfulness, and we through him (which I believe is the meaning of Rom :16-17)
But yes, let’s disagree on this one 😀
Jaco:
Yes, sadly I have. Campbell’s attitude made the whole discussion almost painful to watch. Wright needs to be challenged in regards to his narrative-reading of Paul. Campbell has the capacity to do it, but he came across extremely rude. But then again, the way I speak to people I know well might also come across as rude to an outsider.
At the end of the day, I remain a Wrightarian reader of Paul. 🙂 How about you?
@Per,
“Wright, Hays and Campbell are a few relevant scholars to check out in regards to the subjective genitive view.”
Have you seen the recent panel discussion, (which includes the three you mention) presented by Duke University? Interesting interpersonal dynamics, won’t you say?
Par,
The “subjective genitive” is itself an interpretation of the grammar. I’m looking for the most plausible interpretation that can be derived from the context of Romans 3. This is why I don’t think “the faith” should be attributed to Jesus Christ himself when the subject of the entire context is the disciples of Jesus who are identified by the “we” and “they” and “all.”
You interpretation seems remotely possible at best. We don’t have to keep going back and forth. We can agree to disagree on this one. 🙂
That seems to be begging the question. The fact that our justification is God’s merciful act does not exclude that fact that Jesus was God’s means of being faithful to his covenant. God’s grace is brought about through the redemption that is found within the sphere of Messiah Jesus (v. 26), this is made possible by God’s work through a faithful Israelite, namely Jesus.
Believing in Jesus is of course central as well: “also we believed on Messiah Jesus so that we might be declared justified out of the faithfulness of Messiah” (Gal 2:16b)
Wright, Hays and Campbell are a few relevant scholars to check out in regards to the subjective genitive view.
With these words, I’m off to bed.
Par,
The problem with your reading of Romans 3:26 is that a person is not “justified” by the faithfulness of Jesus himself. Paul said that “justification” is the result of God’s grace (Romans 3:24).
I see no problem with the subjective genitive in Rom 3:26:
“… In order that he may be just and the one declaring the person justified out of the faithfulness of Jesus.”
This fits like a glove with “my” proposed reading.
Per,
Another consideration that I think weighs against your interpretation of “the faith in Jesus Christ” in Romans 3:22 is how Paul used the same PISTEWS IHSOUS in Romans 3:26 where “the faith of Jesus Christ” cannot be “faithfulness of Jesus Christ.” Thus, it seems more likely to me that “the faith in Jesus Christ” is what the subject possesses, and not what Jesus Christ possessed.
Rivers,
I would have to disagree, for the issue in this section of Romans is God’s faithfulness towards the covenant despite the faithless of Israel (Rom 3:2-3). In the eschatological “now” of v 21, God’s faithfulness has now been displayed through the life of the faithful Israelite Jesus. Because of this, and through him, God’s blessings overflow to all, Jew and Gentile alike. Thus the emphasis upon “all who believe”.
“For I say Messiah has become a servent of the circumcision for the sake of God’s truth, so as to confirm the promises given to the fathers, and the Gentiles to glorify God for the sake of (his) mercy, as it is written: For this reason will I confess you among the Gentiles etc etc” (Rom 15:8-9, my own hurried translation)
Pär – yes, good point. I decided not to take the time to dig into the uses of the phrase “faith of Christ.”
But about Hebrew 12, I don’t think it hangs on the translation “pioneer.” First, the passage comes immediately after ch. 11. I suggest that in the writer’s mind, Jesus is the capstone of the series. Second, note what is said immediately after:
This sort of endurance is obviously an act of faith, a demonstration of faith in God. Why are we to “fix our eyes” on him? I suggest: to imitate him. So, nothing hangs on the translation “pioneer.”
Par,
I doesn’t seem likely that the “faith” in Romans 3:21-22 should be attributed to Jesus Christ himself because the subject throughout the entire context of Romans 3:1-31 is the plural “we” and “they” and “all” (which is exclusive of Jesus himself). Thus, I would agree with most translators who understand that Jesus Christ is the object of the “faith” of “all who believe” (Romans 3:22) and of “their” redemption (Romans 3:24).
@ Dale “I’m relying here not on the NT, but on admittedly incomplete and often dubious traditions…”
The NT relies on incomplete and often dubious traditions, doesn’t it?
“We are to follow Jesus in that sort of faith, which we see the apostles doing,” How can you be sure what sort of faith? You cannot be sure who the apostles were, what they believed?
Moreover — to spin off from Mario’s comment on Hebrews 12 — it could be that the use of the articular form of PISTIS (THS PISTIS) migh indicate a more technical meaning of the word, as in referring to the Christian movement as such (a’la its use in the Pastorals): ” Jesus – the originator of THE faith to which we now belong”
@ Dale
Every healthily and wholesomely thinking person knows “instinctively” that Gilson is wrong. I fully agree with your first example (Jesus’ prayer at Gethsemane).
As for the second example (Hebrews 12:2), I believe that some further textual analysis is in point.
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The critical phrase (at Heb 12:2) is [Grk]: ton tês pisteôs archêgon kai teleiôtên iêsoun, for which you give the translation, “Jesus the pioneer and perfecter of our faith”. The key word is archêgon (Strong’s Lexicon G747), which is NOT uniformly translated in English (e.g. “founder”/ESV; “pioneer”/NET; “author”/NIV,NASB).
The Strong’s Lexicon provides this Outline of Biblical Usage (Thayer’s Lexicon) …
1. chief leader, prince (Christ)
2. one that takes the lead in any thing and thus affords an example, a predecessor in a matter, pioneer
3. author
… and 4 NT applications: Acts 3:15; 5:31; Heb 2:10; 12:2. Certainly Acts 3:15; 5:31 are no help, because they present Jesus, respectively, as “archêgos of life” and “archêgos and Savior”. Nor is Heb 2:10 of any help, because it presents Jesus as “archêgos of their salvation”. So we are back with Hebrews 12:2.
Nor is a primary Greek-English Lexicon like the Liddel-Scott-Jones of any help either. In fact, we ONLY find these meanings: origin, chief, founder, captain, leader, first cause, originator. Pioneer is not even mentioned.
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So, I believe that we are left only with your first example, and with this general statement, for sure: “all prayer requires faith in God”.
A bunch of them (e.g. Gal 2:16, 3:22; Philippians 3:9) but especially Romans 3:21 and following:
But now, God’s righteousness has been manifested without Torah, although being witnessed by Torah and the prophets, God’s righteousness through the faith(fulness) of Messiah Jesus, towards all who believe. (Romans 3:21-22, my translation)
Per,
What particular text are you referring to?
Darn, the Greek font didn’t come through. Sorry about that.
Perhaps this would be a good place to explore the subjunctive genetive reading of PISTIS CRISTOU – the faith(fulness) of Christ? To me it seems best to understand this Pauline phrase as to be talking about Jesus as the faithful Israelite, through whose faith God has redeemed both Jew and Gentile.
*cough* ?????? ???????*cough*
Francesco,
I’m relying here not on the NT, but on admittedly incomplete and often dubious traditions about what happened to the apostles. The one who lived long would be John.
Of course, nothing in the post really hinges on what happened to them.
Rivers, excellent points – thanks.
“which we see the apostles doing, in all but one case, to their own premature death.” How do you know?
Talitha / Dale,
I agree that the apostles understood that Jesus Christ had faith.
Another text that is often overlooked is Hebrews 5:7-9 where it says that “In the days of his flesh, he [Jesus] offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One [God the Father] able to save Him from death.”
In the Gospels, Jesus also associated “prayer” with “faith in God” (Mark 11:22-24).
This topic is crucial to knowing and following the Jesus of the Scriptures. What evidence is there that Jesus had a god, and that this was YHWH? Not much, unless one reads the whole Bible.
But even among those who do read it, can its import really sink in?
Hopefully, in seeing it, it won’t be dismissed as economic relationship within the Godhead. May it not just be read as functional submission, an agreed upon result of God the Son’s humanity. Unfortunately, for belivers who stumble across it, initially there may be too much dissonance to recognize that Jesus really means this, that he uses it as more than just a title to him. But it usually is sanitized or rationalized away. It’s robbed of its power to connect us to Jesus as the model of our faith and the example of an overcomer.
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