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In this second part of my discussion with Dr. William Vallicella, I give an argument that when Muslims use the word “Allah” they are referring to the same being Christians refer to when they say “God,” namely, the god of Abraham.
In part 1 we distinguished this reference question from implausible suggestions that there are no important theological differences between Islam and Christianity. I suggested that many evangelical commenters have misheard remarks like those of Wheaton College’s Dr. Hawkins as asserting some sort of religious pluralism. Thus they insist, plausibly, that the theological differences are important. But “Christians and Muslims worship the same god” need only mean that in praying and worshiping they are referring to the same being. This is what Dr. Hawkins meant, and it is also the common stance for both Muslims and Catholics.
Dr. Vallicella took an agnostic position on this reference question because of the difficulty of formulating a general theory of reference. In this episode, I argue for a positive answer to this reference question. We agree that worshiping God requires more than merely referring to God. And we suggest that “worship” is ambiguous. Does this imply something only about the worshiper, or does it also imply reception by the object of worship? If we mean the latter, it’ll be more controversial for either a Christian or a Muslim to say that the other successfully worships God. And we also discuss the idea of general revelation, which seems to imply that many non-Christians have enough causal interaction with God to easily refer to him. And I urge that the fundamental disagreement between Christians and Muslims concerns who the last and best revealer of God is.
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Links for this episode:
- Some posts by Dr. William Valicella “The Maverick Philosopher” on “same god” arguments
- the fake Jesus in Australia
- the fake Jesus in Russia
- Romans 1:18-23
- Who Should Christians Worship?
- latria vs. dulia in Roman Catholic theology
- Martin Buber on “I-Thou” relations
- defeaters in epistemology
- Islam: Muhammad the Prophet – statistics, origins, Allah, and Abraham
- Today’s thinking music is “Truth?” by onlymeith
Great discussion! Great discussion!
The table premise assumes God is unchanging, which is a debate in itself. The alien Obama analogy is too extreme. Why can’t it just be thought of as how we know people generally. I knew such and such a person when they were young and so I know them as such. Another knew the same person in middle life and knew them as such. Another knew them in old age. While the person stays the same each encounter is entirely different and each one would tell stories of the same person and like some essential traits the same but other entirely different. Is assumes God has an essence. When God could relate differently to different peoples. If we assume God exists. I feel the reference in the discussion is enough. Each Abrahamic tradition understood God differently, some may say, misunderstood. God = Allah as understood in the tradition of Islam. Christians may disagree and feel they are mistaken. The reference is there. Just like the Jewishishntradition feels Christians are mistaken about Jesus/God. I know my neighbour as having this character. The neighbour on the other side know them entirely differently.
The table premise assumes God is unchanging, which is a debate in itself. The alien Obama analogy is too extreme. Why can’t it just be thought of as how we know people generally. I knew such and such a person when they were young and so I know them as such. Another knew the same person in middle life and knew them as such. Another knew them in old age. While the person stays the same each encounter is entirely different and each one would tell stories of the same person and like some essential traits the same but other entirely different. Is assumes God has an essence. When God could relate differently to different peoples. If we assume God exists. I feel the reference in the discussion is enough. Each Abrahamic tradition understood God differently, some may say, misunderstood. God = Allah as understood in the tradition of Islam. Christians may disagree and feel they are mistaken. The reference is there. Just like the Jewishishntradition feels Christians are mistaken about Jesus/God. I know my neighbour as having this character. The neighbour on the other side know them entirely differently.
If anyone is interested on my take on the Whole Issue, I put this out today.
https://theologyandjustice.wordpress.com/2016/03/07/the-god-of-islam-the-god-of-judaism-and-the-god-of-christianity-part-1/
And part 2 is coming on Friday, where I address the supposed “binitarianism” in hellenistic Judaism.
Pingback: The God of Islam, the God of Judaism and the God of Christianity – Part 1 – Theology and Justice
Dr. William was saying that usually we have empirical experiences of the thing we identify in language and so we are able to say that two people are talking about the same thing. Couldn’t the same thing in some way he said about the God of Abraham?
Muslims worship a God Christians worship a God.
Muslims worship the God to created he world and is the ground of all being, so do Christians. The God who called Abraham his friend, Muslim says yes, Christians say yes. The God who saves Israel using Moses? Christians and Muslims say yes, and so on down to Jesus. Then they say the God who Jesus preached? Both say yes.
The God who became incarnate in Jesus? Muslims say no Christians say yes. The God who sent Mohammad as his last prophet? Muslims say yes Christians say no.
At that point you’ve established through all the other historical backgrounds that we are talking about the same God. In a sense it’s empirical, we have the recorded texts, Jesus was a historical person, so we’re the prophets who interacted with God.
So it’s akin to if me and Joe talk about Bob. Bob the guy who got drunk at the cabin? Both say yes, Bob the guy who got a hole in one last year? Both say yes, Bob the guy who wears red shoes, yes we both say. Now we establish we are taking about the same Bob.
But now I say “Bob the guy who ate 2 burgers in one sitting last night” then Joe says “no he didn’t he ate one,” then Joe says “Bob the guy who’s gay.” Then I say “no Bob isn’t gay, he had a girlfriend.” Then me and joe argue about whether or not Bob is gay.
The fact that we have differences over what Bob is and what he’s done doesn’t the fact that we are taking about the same Bob since we’ve already established that by mentioning other data points pointing the the fact that it’s the same Bob we are taking about.
Regarding the Obama and tables cases. These referentials really get my head spinning… What about fruit?
Remember the fruit we ate yesterday, I just loved those apples, didn’t you? No! They weren’t apples! They were pears!
Same fruit?
The false prophets are not hard to find though they may not be easily recognized. Satan becomes a messenger of light for a reason. Islam does not recognize Jesus as the Messiah, son of the living God therefore the only conclusion I can draw is that the god of this world has blinded their minds so they cannot understand the truth.
Since there is only one God that rules heaven and earth known as the most high you closed it out very well known that a person can say one thing and another perceive the opposite. There is not way that Islam’s prophet is of God. Please never forget that the devil lies and will continue to lie.
That was as good as its going to get if you want to learn about debate.
Do Christians all worship the same God? Do atheists all disbelieve the same God? Does God hear everyone’s prayers? Does God respond to everyone’s prayers?
And whatever your answers, how can you be sure?
Interesting idea here about the atheists. However, I think atheists do not say that they disbelieve the same God but that they do not believe that any kind of god exists, whatever the number or attributes. Right?
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