First, I suggest we stick with “SER-ber-us” because pronouncing it “Ker-ber-us” fills some people’s heads with images like these. And we can all agree, that is not a good thing. 🙂
Last time, I mentioned Bill Craig’s recent public assertion of his Cerberus analogy for the Trinity. Here’s a remix by an Islamic apologist, with snickering commentary by Reformed Christian apologist James White.
I take it White is not a “social” theorist like Craig, but rather a negative mysterian (refusing to assign much intelligible content to the doctrine) – like those Dallas Theological Seminary folks. In that video linked above, he just asserts that Craig doesn’t know what he’s talking about.
This (that he’s a negative mysterian) in confirmed by this follow up video. (Or at his blog.) In the name of just sticking with what the Bible says, he just repeats traditional catholic creedal formulas, and tells us that Craig’s choice of analogy strikes him as odd.
Well, it shouldn’t be a surprise, first of all. Craig’s book came out in 2003, and he’s been criticized in print in 2006 by a well known Christian philosopher, Daniel Howard-Snyder, in the journal Philosophia Christi. And there’s this.
White’s diagnosis is that Craig’s problem is that “philosophy is the final authority“… :-/ This is the sort of thing you hear from people who don’t realize how much in the grip of various theories they are. (Often patristic-vintage, in this context.)
Then he alleges that Craig doesn’t promote “full throated Christianity”. This is a cheap shot. Craig knows how to argue, and so in a mixed religious setting, of course he argues from premises shared in common between Christians and non-Christians, focusing on what may be argued from common grounds. Perhaps there’s a dispute lurking here about “presuppositionalist” approaches to apologetics…
White: Maybe his problem is that he’s not a Calvinist.
Sigh.
8:62 – He finally comes around to analogies. All bad. This is indeed a patristic theory; I find this in Augustine. How about this one: God is our heavenly Father. I say, that one fits.
But that’s not an analogy for the Trinity.
Right. But it shows that in the Bible God is not so unique that he can’t be compared with any created thing. He can. Another example: we’re made in his image. Resemblance is symmetrical; if I resemble him, it follows that he resembles me. Indeed, this is how nearly all Christian think about God – as a non-physical self.
These ancient “fathers” were under the strong influence of trendy platonic philosophy; and so like many platonists, they wanted to say that the divine being is ineffable – beyond any human concept. But Christians should reject this. Indeed, I don’t think they consistently held to that claim. We should be aware that an old theory is still a theory; back to the sources – that is the only test.
If your theory is such that it can’t be understood, maybe this is because you’re dealing with super-transcendent reality. But you need to rule out that your theory is just confused! In my view, defenders of Trinity theories must show that their theory is the best overall explanation of the texts; it won’t do to try to deduce it from those texts (it doesn’t clearly follow). And to meet this burden, they need to compare it with the best rivals…
Back to White: he gives us an analogy not of the Trinity, but of the revelation thereof. Basically, now we know more about God than we used to. So the Trinity must be consistent with the OT.
13:50 Asserts that at the very least, Craig must SEVERELY qualify any analogy he might give – basically, taking back with one hand what he offers with the other. To my ears, this is Augustine talking again.
If you make no clear assertion, you can’t be refuted; this is the payoff of negative mysterianism about the Trinity, or about any religious doctrine. Works like a charm. And if anyone has an understandable take on the matter, you can’t let it stand – you must say they just don’t know what they’re talking about.
My hat off to Craig for his attempt to give intelligible and well-motivated content to the catholic formulas. I think he’s mistaken about what the Bible says, and I don’t think his theory does what it is supposed to do, but I salute him for trying hard to make it all fit together, knowing that folks like White will sneer at the attempt and insinuate that he’s not much of a theologian. This is simple truth-seeking, though, and responsible use of the abilities God has given us: daring to say something which is in principle refutable. So long as we’re open to refutation, this is how we all get out there, make our mistakes, and learn. In this respect (and others) he’s serving as a good example to us.
Jaco
Agreed. I thought what set the one God of Israel apart was the way He had revealed Himself to this nation which includes the uniqueness of His uni-Personal role in the Pagan world of antiquity.
I tend to disagree with Dale on his application of the genetic fallacy where it comes to the trinity. Who God is and how he reveals himself, in the Judeo-Christian scheme, is through his holy prophets and finally through his son (Heb. 1:1-3). Such exclusivity in mode of revelation excludes the notion of revelation from foreign origin. Paganism cannot provide a better understanding of God, according to Judaism and Christianity and it is therefore valid to criticise the trinity or any self-revelatory understanding of God if it originates from a source God would never use as his line of revelation.
Now someone would object, saying that since OT times many concepts about God were conceptualised using undeniably “pagan” language. God “riding on the clouds,” him “visiting mankind” and other expressions are expressions belonging to the ancient world surrounding the Israelites. Not to mention Philonic concepts of flesh/spirit dualism and logos theology in GJohn and Hebrews. It would be reductionistic, though, to use such occurances as a basis to validate any and all pagan influence on Judaism/Christianity, simply because degree of influence and formulation need to be considered. Secondly, even the obvious influences I mention and others we can add, were still taking place withing the time period and mode of revelation the ancient faithful would consider to be God’s acceptible time and way of revealing himself to us. Divine sanction of some sorts, if we can call it that. Most Christians would deny Nicea and the subsequent counsels and their doctrinal formulas being inspired. That is precisely so, placing them outside the inspired “divine sanction” of formulating divine revelation in pagan terms.
Just my thoughts…
Dale
No problem unless you make it one bro. Truth be told, we’re supposed to take the good and throw away the bad. Something the NT authors understood very well since they quoted some poet/philosophers. ; )
The Cappadocian “Fathers” were clearly Pagan-Gnostic influenced though.
Xavier,
Beware of this fallacy,
Some claim X originated from pagan philosophy,
Therefore, X is false.
This is a fallacy of origin, or the “genetic fallacy”. Problem, is, pagan philosophers were right about some things! For example, their claim (most of them, but the sophists) that there are objectively right and wrong actions – most believed, like us, in what philosophers call “moral realism.” This is no small thing; it is a big and important thing to be right about . Or the belief in a just life after death. Or the common view that pagan mythology was just that.
Still, it can be argued that Craig’s theory, which features three selves each of whom is equally divine, is not consistent with biblical monotheism. But it takes arguing to show this – not mere association with pre-Christian philosophy.
I think there is demonstrably a Greek philosophical influence on early catholic theology, by way of Philo of Alexandria, and the general sort of middle platonism then current. But I’m not willing to say that “the” doctrine (i.e. the 4th c. creedal formula) was somehow generated by pre-Christian sources. Maybe that Hillar book will push me to take a stronger view. But in any case, given the point above, I doubt that the origin of Trinity doctrines is strictly relevant to their truth or falsity. It will always be open to the trinitarian to argue, like e.g. the Cambridge Platonists of the 17th c., that God providentially used pre-Christian philosophy to sort of clear the way for this new theology. At most, their original source might raise a suspicion of whether those theories really have a proper grounding in the texts.
CORRECTION: …impossible to STRAY away…
Dale
My hat is off to Craig for revealing once more how it is impossible to stary away from the pagan roots of the Trinity in order to teach it.
As for White, we have dealt with him for many years now and it is always interesting to see how Calvanism has turned this man, and many followers of Calvin, into such a “snickering”, boastful and ANGRY individual. May God have mercy!
NZapar
Don’t you think there’s a certain irony in what you are saying?
You query Dales Christianity on the basis that he will not accept an UNCHRISTIAN doctrine.
There is NOT A SINGLE verse in the Bible which can be advanced as proof of The Doctrine of the Trinity.!
It’s simply NOT scriptural
The “Cerebrus’ analogy is ‘corny’ as are all Trinitarian analogies.
Here were have a three headed dog in which one head calls the other ‘Father ‘and the other head calls the other “Son’, in which one head acts as ‘agent’ of the other. In which one head prays to another- the mind boggles and supposedly educated men in this century still perform gymnastics to rationalise it.
Just proves that people will ‘see what they want to see” !!
Blessings
John
Great post, man. This (White’s response) is the kind of religious nonsense that drives me crazy. It suffocates honest inquiry and seems to me to smack of anti-intellectualism.
NZapar,
To do that, I’d have to think Muhammad was a real prophet of the one God. I do not – and I have looked pretty thoroughly into the matter. Also, I’d have to believe that Jesus was not who he said he was – the messiah. But, I do. The issue between Christianity and Islam does not come down simply to the viability of some Trinity theory or other – despite what some trinitarians will tell you.
Dale, i think you should become a Muslim. I mean, you’re a Unitarian anyway…why not just become Muslim, seriously…
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