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Did Isaiah predict that someday God would become a baby? Christians have always said this prediction to be fulfilled in the birth of Jesus:
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given, and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. (Isaiah 9:6)
“Mighty God, Everlasting Father” – this sounds like it is referring to God Almighty, to the one Jesus called “my Father and your Father… my God and your God” (John 20:17) So then, is the prediction that God will be born as a human baby? You might think so. But Harvard Old Testament scholar Dr. George R. Noyes (1798-1868 ) disagrees. In this episode, we’ll hear the entirety of his Explanation of Isaiah 9:6 and John 1:1 (2nd ed. 1833)
He also briefly discusses the famous prediction of a baby to be called “God-with-us” (Isaiah 7:14), and as the title indicates, one of the most quoted New Testament texts:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (John 1:1)
Does this passage teach that Jesus always existed, and that he, in some sense, is God, though he’s also “with” God somehow? Dr. Noyes doesn’t think so. Here he explains what he holds to be the Old Testament and Apocryphal keys to understanding John’s meaning here. (What is said there about “God’s word”? )
At the end, Dr. Noyes gives some objections to catholic two-natures theories about Jesus. These focus on Jesus’s statement that
But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. (Mark 13:32)
Are these objections fatal, or are they answerable? And with respect to any of these three texts above – are you convinced? Why or why not?
You can also listen to this episode on Stitcher or iTunes (please subscribe, rate, and review us in either or both – directions here). It is also available on YouTube (you can subscribe here). If you would like to upload audio feedback for possible inclusion in a future episode of this podcast, put the audio file here.
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Links for this episode:
- Irons, Dixon, and Smith, The Son of God: Three Views of the Identity of Jesus
- George R. Noyes
- Max Elfelt, “Jehovah’s Witnesses: An In depth Look” (perspective of an atheist and former member – not very clear or detailed on theology, but much helpful background and other detail)
- debate between Jehovah’s Witness apologist Mr. Greg Stafford and evangelical apologist Dr. James White
- Knocking:The Untold Story of Jehovah’s Witnesses (2006)
- biblical unitarian links
- podcast 71 – Is Proverbs 8 about Jesus? Part 1
- podcast 70 – The one God and his Son according to John
- Moses Stuart (1780-1852)
- Who was born on the first Christmas?
- Simeon Says…
- the Bible on another previous life of Jesus [parody alert]
- Handel’s Messiah
- the trinities podcast Facebook group
Pingback: 58 of 100: How is Jesus the Everlasting Father? (Isa 9:6) | 100 Reasons why the Bible does not use the word Trinity
How is Jesus the everlasting Father?
This is a future prophecy concerning Jesus. For instance ‘Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end,’ is yet to be fulfilled and will only be fulfilled at his return or second coming.
1.]
The formula of Trinity states that
The Father is not the son
and
The Son is not the Father.
Yet practical Trinity see the son as the Father and the Father as the son.
Further, Jesus is the son and is not the Father of God. I.e. YHWH the God of Abraham does not call Jesus his Father.
The father testified:
‘and a voice came from heaven, “You are my beloved Son; with you I am well pleased.”’ (Luk 3:22 )
2.]
Jesus also told us not call Jesus as the Father as we understand the ‘term’:
Mat 23:8 But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brothers.
Mat 23:9 And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven.
Mat 23:10 Neither be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Christ.
I.e Jesus explained who he was and who the Father was and how each should be honoured.
3.]
— Psalms 22:30 —
Jesus did not have a wife to produce in the natural sense, yet Psalms 22:30 states:
(KJV) A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.
(LEB) Descendants will serve him. Regarding the Lord, it will be told to the next generation.
(WEBA) Posterity shall serve him. Future generations shall be told about the Lord.
(YLT) A seed doth serve Him, It is declared of the Lord to the generation.
(ESV) Posterity shall serve him; it shall be told of the Lord to the coming generation;
Jesus’ role was to lead us to God. But how does Jesus produce children?
Again Isaiah prophecies this:
Isa 53:10 Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
A. he shall see his offspring; (Father)
B. he shall prolong his days; (Everlasting)
A literal reading of the above does not make sense as Jesus neither married, had children nor long life. Yet Jesus was promised to be the everlasting Father i.e. one has long life and many children.
Albert Barnes – A trinitarian commentator explains:
He shall see his seed – His posterity; his descendants. The language here is taken from that which was regarded as the highest blessing among the Hebrews. With them length of days and a numerous posterity were regarded as the highest favors, and usually as the clearest proofs of the divine love. ‘Children’s children are the crown of old men’ Pro 17:6. See Psa 127:5; Psa 128:6: ‘Yea, thou shalt see thy children’s children, and peace upon Israel.’ So one of the highest blessings which could be promised to Abraham was that he would be made the father of many nations Gen 12:2; Gen 17:5-6. In accordance with this, the Messiah is promised that he shall see a numerous spiritual posterity. A similar declaration occurs in Psa 22:30, which is usually applied to the Messiah. ‘A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.’
John Gill – Another trinitarian commentator explains:
He shall see his seed; or, “a seed”; a spiritual seed and offspring; a large number of souls, that shall be born again, of incorruptible seed, as the fruit of his sufferings and death; see Joh 12:24, this he presently began to see after his resurrection from the dead, and ascension to heaven; when great numbers were converted among the Jews, and after that multitudes in the Gentile world, and more or less in all ages; ever since has he had a seed to serve him; and so he will in the latter day, and to the end of time:
he shall prolong his days: live long, throughout all ages, to all eternity; though he was dead, he is alive, and lives for evermore; lives to see all the children that the Father gave him, and he has gathered together by his death, when scattered abroad, and see them all born again, and brought to glory.
JFB explain:
his seed — His spiritual posterity shall be numerous (Psa 22:30); nay, more, though He must die, He shall see them. A numerous posterity was accounted a high blessing among the Hebrews; still more so, for one to live to see them (Gen 48:11; Psa 128:6).
Actually Trinitarians are in agreement with Unitarians on the ‘Fatherhood’ of Jesus 🙂
Let us now turn to the New testament to see its fulfilment:
Heb 2:13 And again, “I will put my trust in him.” And again, “Behold, I and the children God has given me.”
Jesus faith and trust brought about the victory sin and death. Jesus makes us sons and daughters to God yet God gives them to Jesus.
Paul compares the Physical Adam with the Spiritual Adam
Eve was the mother of the living. Yet the human race was subject to death.
Jesus on the other hand produces eternal children through his resurrection.
1Co 15:20 But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
1Co 15:21 For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.
Adam brought death, but Jesus brings life.
Jesus himself is the firstfruit of this process.
So Jesus is the everlasting Father as opposed to Adam the Father of death!
Natural v/s Spiritual (From heaven)
1Co 15:46 But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven.
1Co 15:48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven.
1Co 15:49 Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.
The prophecy of the Everlasting Father is fulfilled in Jesus in that he became the ‘life-giving spirit.’
1Co 15:45 Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
So this is an amazing prophecy about the man Jesus who will die a virgin yet produces innumerable children.
Summary of meaning:
— Everlasting – Promise of eternal life
— Father – The last Adam became a life-giving spirit
— Birthing process – Not creation or sex but resurrection.
(Jesus should be paralled with Adam and not God to understand the prophecy)
Paul testifies thus (Jesus did not raise himself but the Father did)
1Co 15:15 We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified about God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised.
1Co 15:16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised.
1Co 15:17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins.
1Co 15:18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
1Co 15:19 If in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied.
1Co 15:20 But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
1Co 15:21 For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.
The Father is the source: Jesus feeds of the Father and we feed of Jesus:
“As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me.” John 6:57 (ESV)
4.]
Another analogy of Jesus as husband and ‘In place of your fathers shall be your sons; you will make them princes in all the earth.’
Psa 45:7 you have loved righteousness and hated wickedness. Therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions;
Psa 45:8 your robes are all fragrant with myrrh and aloes and cassia. From ivory palaces stringed instruments make you glad;
Psa 45:9 daughters of kings are among your ladies of honor; at your right hand stands the queen in gold of Ophir.
Psa 45:10 Hear, O daughter, and consider, and incline your ear: forget your people and your father’s house,
Psa 45:11 and the king will desire your beauty. Since he is your lord, bow to him.
Psa 45:12 The people of Tyre will seek your favor with gifts, the richest of the people.
Psa 45:13 All glorious is the princess in her chamber, with robes interwoven with gold.
Psa 45:14 In many-colored robes she is led to the king, with her virgin companions following behind her.
Psa 45:15 With joy and gladness they are led along as they enter the palace of the king.
Psa 45:16 In place of your fathers shall be your sons; you will make them princes in all the earth.
Psa 45:17 I will cause your name to be remembered in all generations; therefore nations will praise you forever and ever.
Merry Christmas Dale,
The Greek phrase ? ????? (The Word) in John 1:1 was one of the many abstract titles of Jesus Christ along with ?? ??? (The Light) and ? ???? (The Door). The name ‘Word’ shows that Jesus Christ’s function is to reveal God similar to what a word is, an expression from the inside out.This meaning was very manifest in John 1:18. Contrary to the Unitarian claim, the ????? in John 1:1 was not a mere plan, message, word or speech. In fact, the Apostle John specifically identified the ????? as ‘God’ in the third clause.
The Greek phrase ?? ???? was the same phrase found in Genesis 1:1. John 1:3 clearly showed that it refers to the ‘beginning of creation’ exactly like what Genesis 1:1 refers to.
The Targums spoke of the Word of the Lord in place of God. John merely followed that old tradition.
The second clause of John 1:1 says that the Word was with God. That means the Word and God are not the same persons.
The distinction between the two – the Word and God – is maintained.
The third clause of John 1:1 says that the Word was God. That means the Word and God have the same name.
However, their sameness should not be taken for granted. Their being same in name shows their identical attributes.
The Logos in John 1:1 is ‘God.’ Jews and Christians believe that God is a personal being. Thus, the Logos, being God, is a person.
The Greek word ?ó??? functions as a name in John 1:1. It is a name of a person. It is the name of Jesus Christ (Rev. 19:13). There is a reason why English Bibles read ‘Word’ (not ‘word’) in John 1:1.
Very imaginative – but necessarily very inaccurate.
You have not dealt with your completely one-off definition you have created in contrast to about 10,000 absolutely consistent uses of the Logos in a NON-personal manner throughout scripture.
We have a choice – follow the clear sentiment and expression of scripture – or follow Hellenistic post-Apostolic tradition. You can guess which approach I am opting for…:-)
Merry Christmas Dale,
Isaiah 9:6 says that ‘a son is given’ (echoing John 3:16).
[‘A child is born…who will be called ‘Mighty God…’] is alluded by Matthew 1:23.
There is no wonder that Isaiah 9:6 is highly implied in those N.T. passages.
The Hebrew term “father” precedes the word translated eternal (lit. father eternal) indicating the eternal nature of the Messiah. The Aramaic Targums reveal this thought well:
For us a child is born, to us a son is given . . . and his name will be called the Wonderful Counselor, the Mighty God, existing forever [or He who lives forever ]. The Messiah in whose days peace shall increase upon us (Targum, Jonathan; emphasis added).
Since early on you talked about Jehovah’s Witnesses I thought I’d chime in since I am one. It’s true that there is a hierarchy of authority, there has to be if an organization is going to have a worldwide evangelism work, done in a unified way. There are idiosyncratic beliefs, but none of them are set in stone, and there is no “official interpretation” or statement of faith, there are something’s the watchtower says that I would have a hard time defending, but overall I think they have it right. It’s a very close community, with organized preaching work and a strong stance against nationalism and for Christian ethics, and I think being part of a close and serous Christian community is important.
a lot of evangelicals don’t like JWs and I understand the frustration other Unitarians have when they are accused of being JWs. It must feel like a regular social democrat being called a communist or something :P. Anyway, interesting episode as always. Especially the critique of the whole “human nature” defense that trinitarians use, the whole “one eye closed, so I didn’t see him, since one of my eyes didn’t see him” example.
Totally agree with you. Word of God and Spirit of God have been used in Hebrew Bible as attributes of God rather than distinct hypostases within Godhead as explicated in Trinitarian theology. Both these attributes of God have been used in Hebrew Bible in a connected way too. So when spirit of God comes upon a prophet, he starts prophesying the word of God. So the idea is that prophet is not speaking on his own, but just relaying the word of God or what God has to say to the people. The term spirit itself has double meaning, it can mean that the power of God came upon the prophet or it can also mean, breath of God came upon the prophet. Since breath is required to speak, idea could be that prophet is not speaking out of his own breath, but breath of God is working in him – another way of implying that prophet is just speaking on behalf of God, not on his own. The term prophet itself in Hebrew is ‘navi’ which comes from the term ‘naav’ meaning tongue. The idea is that the prophets are considered the tongues of God, speaking on behalf of God what God has to say to the people. This might have been what gospel writers meant when they wrote that after Holy Spirit descended on Jesus at his baptism, he started preaching kingdom of God and later when Holy Spirit descended on apostles at Pentecost, they started preaching the gospel.
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