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This episode is an extended conversation with Bill Schlegel, host of the One God Report podcast.
Hosted by our friend Sam Adams for his YouTube channel Transfigured, we have a friendly argument about whether “the beginning” mentioned in John 1:1 is supposed to be the time of the Genesis creation or the time of God’s “new creation” through Jesus, the start of the new Christian era. Another question is: is “the Word” here the man Jesus, or is it something like God’s wisdom?
For Bill, the whole Prologue is about the man Jesus’s era. As I read it, the account starts with the time of creation and then tells a story that culminates in God’s word living among us in the Messiah Jesus.
Are you persuaded by Bill’s case? By mine? Why or why not?
Links for this episode:
- John 1:1-14; Genesis 1:1-3; Psalm 33:6, Proverbs 8:30; Psalm 119:105; John 6:65; John 8:25; John 16:4; John 15:27; 1 John 1:1-4; Wisdom of Solomon 9:1-4; Hebrews 1:1-3; Colossians 1:15-20; 1 Corinthians 8:4-6; Revelation 19:13; Sirach 24:1-10; Exodus 4:16; 2 Corinthians 5:19; John 14:23; John 12:48; John 3:18; John 20:31; John 1:12; John 3:19; John 8:12; John 12:46; John 1:26; John 1:14; Baruch 3:9-37; Wisdom of Solomon 9:1-4; Wisdom of Solomon 18:14-16; 1 John 4:1-3; Genesis 22:1-19; John 1:29; Hebrews 11:17-19; Hebrews 11:1; Revelation 3:14; Mark 1:1; Matthew 1:1.
- Sam Adams’s YouTube channel: Transfigured
- A Non-Trinitarian Amidst Evangelicals, The Value of Propositional Belief
- What is a Christian? Alister McGrath’s Heresy, The Trinity, Propositional Truth, the Church
- The One God Report podcast (@Apple)
- What about John 1:1? (part 1)
- Evolution of the Trinity, Interview with Dr. Dale Tuggy, part 1
- Evolution of the Trinity, Part 2, Interview with Dr. Dale Tuggy
- One God Report
- Bill & Stephanie Schlegel: From Trinity to One God
- podcast 291 – From one God to two gods to three “Gods” – John 1 and early Christian theologies
- podcast 290 – Is the “Socinian” interpretation of John 1 correct? A conversation with Carlos.
- podcast 289 – “Socinian” approaches to John 1 – Part 2
- podcast 288 – “Socinian” approaches to John 1 – Part 1
- podcast 287 – Dr. Andrew Perry on John 1
- podcast 224 – Biblical Words for God and for his Son Part 1 – God and “God” in the Bible
- This week’s thinking music is “Poolside” by Little Glass Men.
Thank you Sam, Dale, and Bill for this thought-provoking discussion. I was so impressed with it the first time, that I decided to listen to it a second time and take (what turned out to be pretty lengthy) notes. From my perspective, either of these interpretations to John’s prologue is closer to what John intended than the typical Trinitarian interpretation.
In the show notes above, Dales links to a couple of worthwhile conversations that Sam had with Paul VanderKlay (“A Non-Trinitarian Amidst Evangelicals…” and “What is a Christian…”). I recommend both of those conversations not only for their content but also for their tone.
I think there is no other way of explaining John 1:1 and John 1:14 besides John saying Jesus is God. We already know Jesus was before all creation pre-incarnate(because he says so in the Gospel of John). He was always with Father as His Word which explains John 10:30 “I and the Father are one.” The Word is always with the father and has been. Why would I need to believe in Jesus if he is not God? Why would I need to believe in the Son for eternal life if he is not God? Why do Acts tell us to be saved we need to Believe in Jesus (if he is not God). Why does Paul cast out demons in Jesus’s name if he is not God?
Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
1 John 5:12 to have life I need to believe in a creature and God. You should only Worship God the creator why his Creature Jesus?
Mark 16 17-19
And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name, they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up serpents with their hands; and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover.” So then the Lord Jesus, after he had spoken to them, was taken up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God.
Casting out demons in a name other than God unless Christ is also God? Why not cast demons in the name of God of Israel, of Abraham and Moses why JESUS?
John 14:1
“Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me.”
Why also believe in him? He puts himself almost at an equal level with God by saying belief in God and himself.
John 20:31
but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.
The only god gives life yet in the Name of Jesus-the Word Of God- we have life?
Ephesians 2:10?
John 1:18?
Matthew 28:19 “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.
Why would I baptize in any other name besides the One True God? Why baptize in the name of God and Jesus(if he were not divine).
+ Matthew 9:6-8 “But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins”—he then said to the paralytic—“Rise, pick up your bed and go home.” And he rose and went home. When the crowds saw it, they were afraid, and they glorified God, who had given such authority to men.”
Someone who is not God can forgive my sins now since when? isn’t this contradicting the old testament?
John 6:47 – Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. ?
1 John 1:7 – But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.?
Hebrews 12:2
Galatians 2:16
Romans 3:22
2 Corinthians 5:17
If Christ is not God what is the point of believing in him at all he is clearly greater than Moses and any other prophet.
To have eternal life I need to believe in a creature and also the creator. Only the creator grants eternal life why Believe in Christ his creature?
Revelation 1:1Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last:
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.
1 Timothy 6:14-16 – “our Lord Jesus Christ’s appearing, which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.”
Hebrews 1:8-9 – But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.
18 This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
33 The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God.”
JAmes 2:1
2 My brothers, show no partiality as you hold the faith in our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory.
Hebrews 1:1
1 Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.
John 14:13–14 (ESV)
13 Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it.
Why does a creature’s name have power? Only God can do what we ask in Him yet Christ promises this?
Acts 7
Stephen sees Jesus
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
Why would God give this creature authority?
Why does the Bible value a creature of God this much, How can Jesus provide us eternal life, forgive sins, do what we ask, exorcise demons in his Name, be seated at the Right Hand OF the Father, control over Heaven and Earth,
. Romans 10:13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
Apparently calling on the name of someone other than God is okay?
John 8:58 – Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Mark 2:5-7
When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven.” Now some of the scribes were sitting there, questioning in their hearts, “Why does this man speak like that? He is blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?”
Colossians 1:15
[Jesus] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created…
Hebrews 1:3
[Jesus] is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power.
Mark 14:61-62 — But He kept silent and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked Him, saying to Him, “Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?” Jesus said, “I am. And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.”
Titus 2:13 — looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,
Acts 20:28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God,[a] which he bought with his own blood
j
Revealtion 1:8 Alpha and Omega is God and apparently so is Jesus?
Jesus says all that is the Fathers is his in John 17 why would God share his Glory with someone who is a creature?
John 17:5 New International Version (NIV)
5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.
Clearly Jesus was before all creation. In my opinion, the Bible is either full of contradictions and errors. Or Christ is more than human and simply put it this way the Father and His Word(Jesus Christ). No one is worthy of worship except the Almighty God, we believe in one God YHWH, our Savior is the one True God, YHWH grants Eternal Life, so why also believe in Jesus? How does Jesus also provide all these things if he is not God? The word has always been with the Father and they are one. And the Bible clearly mentions the Word as Jesus.
Greg,
if dual application is mere fantasy, how do you explain the reapplication of
1. Hos 11:1 about the people of Israel, reapplied to Jesus (cf. Matt 2:15)
2. Isa 7:14 about Maher-Shalal-Hash-Baz, son of Isaiah, reapplied to Jesus (cf. Matt 1:22-23 in the LXX).
3. Heb 1:5 about King Solomon, reapplied to Jesus (cf 1 Sam 7:14)
It seems NT authors took some liberty to give OT passages a new application.
Contrary to Dale’s statement, there is actually an incarnation in the prologue. The issue is not whether there is an incarnation – the issue is WHAT exactly was incarnated…
I can see the Anti-gnostic element possibly though there are serious questions as to really what that was all about and if it was not simply a species of christanized species of platonism.
I suspect more likely is simply John wanting to provide a Christian view of the ? ????? in contrast to the many prevailing views of what was really a substantial philosophical concept at the time.
Dale,
Is it possible “In the beginning” is a phrase John uses for both the Genesis beginning and the new creation in Jn 1:1? Just as some scripture alludes to two different things – like Isaiah 7:14 applying both the days of Ahaz and the virgin conception of Jesus? God’s scripture is quite dynamic.
For example, if I made a speech now in 2020 saying “four score and seven years ago” and talked of a new birth of liberty/freedom, a great battlefield, resolution that the dead have not died in vain – everyone would instantly say “ah, Lincoln’s Gettysburg Address.” But if I was trying to use history to connect our battle against COVID-19, and I also literally mean 87 (four-score) years ago, tying Congress’ 1933 vote to liberate the Philippines and enact the New Deal to end the Great Depression, all such phrases (battlefield, freedom, not dying in vain, four-score) could apply to both in my speech. I’d be deliberately meaning for an audience to read the text of Lincoln’s original address and see how the phraseology (and realities we face) fit those in the Civil War, 1933, and 2020 today.
Is it possible John intended this when he wrote this gospel? Both God creating by His word in Genesis (and Proverbs wisdom), AND the direct parallel to Jesus’ ministry in the new world creation?
Mark,
Is7.14 does not apply to a Virgin birth – this is a fictional misinterpretation of the text in a NT addition.
More important, there is no such thing as “dual application” – that is an evangelical hermeneutical fantasy.
Your question and a lot of commentary assumes that Genesis 1:1 is referring to the original creation. I don’t believe it is. This assumption has led to a lot of discussion between the seeming disconnect between the first eleven chapters of Genesis and the rest of the book. However, it’s a fabricated and unnecessary disconnect. The story of chapters 11-50 explicitly deal with the Promised Land motif as one of the strongest themes. What if the first eleven chapters are also a part of this same theme? What if instead of talking about the original creation—an event which the Bible actually seems to be quite silent about—these chapters are simply describing the “re-“creation of the same land that figures so prominently throughout the rest of the book? In other words, what we have in the very first verse (and no “gap” between verses 1 & 2) all the way through the end of the eleventh chapter is the reforming of the land that would become known as the Promised Land: the making it habitable for Jehovah’s new and finest creation, Mankind; and, the various events and stories concerning that Land pre-Abraham, which then leads into a smooth and seamless transition and narrowing down to the story of “one man’s family,” as it has been called. This approach, favored by some scholars, would instantly negate all the “Creation references” that John is supposedly alluding to in his Prologue, and would instead bring it back down to earth as his attempt to combat the ever-growing heresy of Gnosticism that was running amok even before the great apostle left the stage.
This was a good conversation, although Bill tried to monopolize it quite a bit. Two of the classical Unitarians I read, Joseph Priestley and Thomas Belsham, had very different views on this. Priestley saw the Prologue as definitely being John’s attempt to combat the Gnostic heresy (the only heresy extant during the apostles’ time) by throwing the entire argument right back at them and showing the superiority of Jesus using their own arguments, while Belsham took the entire account as having to do with the beginning of Christ’s ministry and the Gospel dispensation. I’ve been quite undecided about this myself, but I’m now leaning towards Priestley’s view as the arguments and allusions that John uses in combating the Gnostic heresy would have been recognized and understood by his readers, this entire situation being a real on-the-ground battle going on at the time. Modern readers are so far removed from this real-life situation that was going on at the time that it’s no wonder the Prologue is so argued about today with all kind of fanciful views being read into it.
I can see the Anti-gnostic element possibly though there are serious questions as to really what that was all about and if it was not simply a species of christanized species of platonism.
I suspect more likely is simply John wanting to provide a Christian view of the ? ????? in contrast to the many prevailing views of what was really a substantial philosophical concept at the time.
Bill can be a whiz with verbal embellishment…;-)
Good interview between two fellow BUs with signficantly different approaches to understanding the language in the Prologue. Sam Tideman did a nice job of moderating the lively discussion, as well as interjecting pertinent questions.
I hope these kinds of friendly exchanges will continue in order for biblical unitarians to be able to sort out the pros and cons of different options.
That’s shocking
“BUs” had different readings on prologue
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