podcast 91 – Dr. Joshua Thurow on theories of the atonement

Dale, I’ve got to say that this was one of my favorite podcasts so far! I love all of the views put forth. I was attempting to make an audio file, but after the computer crashed, I figured I would use the medium most comfortable (although I am often more easily misunderstood when I type).

I wanted to know how you felt about this way that I see it all:

Firstly, Jesus does indeed provide an atonement, for, “his death shall be for an atonement.”
I, however, don’t think of it in the same way as a literal sacrifice. For instance, a lot of Christians, as was evidenced by some of the explanations in the video, think of the sacrifice of Jesus as something like a payment, or that like God was out for blood, and He just had to have someone’s blood. Because of this, the insinuated contradiction with other scriptures breeds the idea that he had to be of an infinite value to atone for an infinite amount of sins (as many as would come to him).

I think that it’s actually more related to his ability to grant life, his words, and his being appointed by the Father. I think that a lot of the points mentioned can be reconciled and that they aren’t contradictory, although I think that various Christians use a fish eye lens when viewing things, or do so with tunnel vision, to where they do not get the entire concept.

For instance, how does Jesus atone for us, and yet we are supposed to follow him in doing what he does to atone for us? I try to remember that Jesus (and the other writers in the Bible) often say the same things with different words throughout. So, for instance, from what I understand, Jesus saying that the thing which will give us eternal life is that very thing that atones for sin. After all, the wages of sin are death, right? So, if we have our sin forgiven, then certainly we would live, right?

I look again at passages which, when spoken in other ways to many modern Christians, are considered heresy. For instance, we have in Ezekiel, where God says that the soul that sins is the soul that will die, but the soul that stops sinning will live. It would be considered heresy nowadays to say that if you stop sinning then you will live for a few reasons:

1) they may be “one-saved-always-saved”, to where you would live whether you sinned or not — even willingly

2) they would assume that you meant apart from Jesus

3) if understanding that you mean with Jesus, would claim that it’s a “works-based salvation”

None of these assertions or cherry-picking can nullify the same things being said elsewhere in the Bible, and even by our Lord himself, Jesus Christ.

So, how do we reconcile these things? Well, I see Jesus speaking more about his own words as being what grant eternal life than anything else. He does say that as a result of them coming from the Father, therefore they are life eternal. We know this is true even from the Law, where Moses appeals to Israel for God and says to obey all of God’s words so that they will live. Well wait a minute: if *obeying* the words is what brings like according to God elsewhere, is that the same for Christians?

Some would say no, and that the Law was done away with, or something equivalent. However, it doesn’t necessarily follow that we don’t have to still do what God says. How does that follow? Well, it’s important to remember that it’s the word of God that brings life. The Law isn’t something apart from God’s commands, but God’s commands are contained within the code of the Law. If Jesus speaks all the words of God, and God’s word brings eternal life (John 12:50), and “no word of God can ever be broken” (Luke 1), and “heaven and earth may pass away, but my words will not pass away”; then how can we reconcile obeying Jesus to having salvation “by grace through faith apart from the Law”?

The idea that Paul puts forth is not that we don’t work. Indeed, he says that whoever does wickedly will not enter into the kingdom of God. He even speaks about himself and says that he beats his body and makes it his slave so that he himself will not be *disqualified* in the race. In other words, even Paul has to abstain from doing wickedness, or he will be condemned. This lines up fine with what Jesus says also, and is coming from the same person who propagates so much of the “grace apart from the Law” talk, so I think it can be trusted.

Nevertheless, putting all of this aside, how does one think of Jesus as an atonement if we must also obey? After all, no one is truly forgiven if they must work — rather, it’s owed. Paul’s point on that is obvious from what he says elsewhere: since the Law prescribes death for sins, then no one can be justified (made righteous), having sinned, if they have broken the Law.

Now, this is often tried to make dovetail with the idea of the atonement having a certain grade of value, a certain calibur; or you could say a certain figurative “cash” value. Basically, Jesus is one with a blank check, and so the only way you could pay off all of your debts would be with as much money as you need reserved for you at all times.

That begs the question though, doesn’t it? After all, if it is paid, how is it *forgiven*?

I think that this can be answered in that Jesus pays for us an himself in a different way. What he truly pays for when he offers himself is for his installment as God’s firstborn. Not that God didn’t love him beforehand, but Paul (and Jesus also in John 12:20-26) says that this was made effectual by his death. Because of his obedience, he was given the highest place and given power and authority, even above angels. Jesus relates this power and authority of the Son of Man (Daniel 7) also to be given in response to his obedience (John 12:23), as Paul does (Philippians 2:8-11), and also the author of Hebrews (Hebrews 1:3,4).

How do we relate this to obeying Jesus in order to have life? Well, firstly, John says that Jesus came to destroy the devil’s work, and also that whoever sins is of the devil; that whoever sins does not know God, but also that Jesus came to reveal God. However, Jesus says that his words that give life are also Spirit. Now only does he say that it’s the Spirit that gives life, but he claims that whoever believes his words will have the rivers of living water (the Spirit) welling up within them; that they will be a spring, welling up to eternal life. (John 4:14 / John 7:38,39)

OK, we’re beginning to get somewhere. Not only does that last linking verse in John 7 reaffirm that his words bring life, but being that it’s from the Spirit, we see that the Spirit is given once Jesus is glorified. As Peter said, “he has received the promised Holy Spirit and poured out what you now see and hear.” As Jesus also said, “I will send you another comforter” and “he will remind you of what I said” and, since all that the Father has is Jesus’, therefore the Spirit will take from what is Jesus’ (really, from what is the Father’s) and give it to the believers. What is that? The word of God, of course!

I could go on and on about this, but let me try to wrap up, as I lose my train of thought if I speak or write on lengthy subjects without a discourse going on:

I feel as though Jesus’ death permitted him to be able to give us that which is necessary for us to have eternal life. This takes effort on our part. If not, then we’ve thrown out a good portion of the New Testament — I mean a very significant portion from just about all (if not all) of the books, including those testifying to what Jesus said.

If it were a literal payment, then I’m thinking it would not only:
1) not be actual forgiveness
2) not be effectual only for those who believed on Jesus

Furthermore, Jesus places emphasis on understanding the Father, and knowing Him, the only true God, for life. Also, we must know Jesus. Why? John 1:18, that’s why. Said so many times in so many ways, Jesus reveals the Father. What’s it mean? Read John’s epistles. It’s talking about knowing the Father as a person and how He is — you know, what He wants. The way to love God in the Old Testament was by doing His commands, i.e. doing His word. *It is considered the same in the New Testament.* John said not only that we know God if we keep His commands, but that to love God is to do His commands. That is, in the context, what Deuteronomy 6:4 is all about, if you read through it.

So, when we have the renewing of our minds (for the Son of Man came not to call the righteous, but the sinners to repentance), we receive the Spirit of adoption, by which we are sons, loving God. This is because God loved us first. We understand Him, His love for us, and so we love Him.

This is impossible without Jesus offering up his life for us, and God has proven not only that He loves us in that He offered His Son and testified about him (indeed, the antiChrists against the Father and Son – Psalm 2 – are those who deny God’s testimony about him – 1 John 2:22-24), but that He loves His Son in that He raised him from the dead.

This was to fulfill the promise God made, that the Messiah to come would be His Son because He loved him, and would as a result give him eternal life, the kingdom of God, and all the nations of the earth because of His love. Jesus said God remains with him because he always does what pleases Him. Jesus was obedient unto death, and has therefore received all God has to give, and he sits at God’s right hand.

So, since God has appointed him ruler and proved it by raising him from the dead, whoever believes in Jesus believes in the Father, but whoever is against the Son is also against the Father. (Luke 9:27)

Matthew 10:40-42 demonstrates the principle by which we receive eternal life through faith apart from the Law. This however is not contrary to knowing God, abiding in Jesus, doing God’s commands, and reaping eternal life by living to the Spirit. After all, because the the heart for God, He will forgive – but the one who transgresses has death, and the one who does not believe will not have forgiveness of sins.

The way Paul put it is that whoever dies with Christ (baptism) will be raised with him. And so Jesus also says the same thing when he says that whoever wants to go with him must take up his cross (that is, *DIE*) and follow him. The “sacrifices and offering You did not desire, but a body You have prepared for me” does not only apply to Jesus, being that David also spoke that about his own predicament. God doesn’t want sacrifices, but He wants us; and He doesn’t want our blood, but He wants to have mercy. God wants our hearts, and He considers this enough; the broken spirit and contrite heart God does not reject, but only those who understand God can be sorry for transgressing Him — and we know Him by His Son.

If I’ve left anything out, or if you have any questions as to how I’m linking these things up (being that I can be unclear and appear to jump to conclusions because of all that is going on in my mind), please let me know, and I can keep in touch, God-willing.

God bless you, and know that you have a lot of people here who eagerly listen and appreciate all that you’re doing here.
Again, God bless!

Love in Him,
-Jonathan Jensen