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In this episode, apologist Chris Date continues to develop his Trinity theory we heard the roots of last time, and also adds in a new, similar but different theory.
Starting from ideas in a Psychology article, and adding some reflections based on his favorite first-person shooter video game, Chris Date suggests that one being/substance might well have three “subjectivities” or points of view. This is supposed to give us an idea of “Persons” which are not beings, but rather attributes of beings (or of their experiences).
But in principle, could such “Persons” (which are attributes/properties/features) do what the New Testament says that the Father and the Son do? I urge not – that’s the gist of my objections to his first Trinity theory here.
On his second Trinity theory – quickly expounded towards the end of his episode, each “Person” of the Trinity is a self. But the problem now is that they will be the same self. And so similarly, this second theory clashes with the New Testament too, ruling out the interpersonal (self to another self) relationship we see there between God and his human Son.
Towards the end, I explain why I genuinely appreciate what Chris Date is doing, and why I think he should keep going in his quest for a viable Trinity theory.
Links for this episode:
The Unitarian Christian Alliance Podcast
UCA Podcast #36 – The 1st UCA Conference – Stacey Berger
UCA Podcast #38 (link coming)
podcast 336 – Chris Date’s Search for a Viable Trinity Theory – Part 1
Theopologetics 028: Can an Orthodox Doctrine of the Trinity Be Logically Coherent?
Wozniak, ““I” and “Me”: The Self in the Context of Consciousness”
Zagzebski, “Omnisubjectivity“
Mullins, “The Doctrine of Divine Simplicity“
Divine Simplicity Q&A w/ William Lane Craig + Ryan Mullins
Why Would Someone Hold to Divine Simplicity? (w/ Ryan Mullins)
Mullins, “Divine Simplicity and Modal Collapse: A Persistent Problem“
Does the Trinity Contradict with Classical Theism? (w/ Ryan Mullins)
DEBATE: Trinity vs. Tawheed (Dr. James White vs. Jake Brancatella)
podcast 302 – The Stages of Trinitarian Commitment
podcast 189 – The unfinished business of the Reformation
podcast 334 – “Who do you say I am?”
podcast 260 – How to Argue that the Bible is Trinitarian
The Tuggy-Brown debate: Dale’s opening statement
How Trinity theories conflict with the New Testament
podcast 248 – How Trinity theories conflict with the Bible
This week’s thinking music is the track “Arpanauts” by Eric Skiff.
Wow – Chris Date was all over the place on those explanations. It was hard to follow at times. I’m very thankful you paused it and broke down what he was saying, Dale.
My favorite part was your summary at the end. It was such an appreciation for where he is at (because you’ve been there) and a loving encouragement for him to exhaust more options until he realizes we don’t need to spend so much time or energy on this topic.
Wrongheaded though such theories may be on Trinity, it is always good when one is able to counter them in love without harsh judgment.
Appreciate your work as usual Dale.
I too, seek Truth in God’s holy Word. My understanding is that there is a Trinity in heaven, but it is not the one that we are taught. The Trinity could well include three persons, if the term ‘persons’ is defined differently, as Ephesians 2:11-21 proclaims. That writing states that Jesus “is our peace, he who made both one and broke down the dividing wall of enmity, through his flesh, abolishing the law with its commandments and legal claims, that he might create in himself one new person in place of the two, thus establishing peace.” According to this writing, one person is a compilation of all Jews, while the second person is a compilation of all Gentiles. These two persons come together in peace, in following Jesus and become “one new person.” To see the three persons of the Trinity with this understanding, the Trinity makes sense. God, the Father and Creator of all is one person, the first person. The second person is God’s Son which is comprised of all who have been graced with eternal life in heaven. The third person is the holy Spirit of God which all share. Jesus prayed that we would be one – like He and the Father are one. Maybe, once we are graced with entry into heaven, we will truly become ONE, the second person of the Trinity, the Son of God.
One problem with this is that the two “persons” (Jews and Gentiles) are no longer two distinct persons, but only one. The doctrine of the Trinity states that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are eternally three distinct persons, not three persons who have now become one person. Paul was speaking metaphorically; the framers of the creeds were not.
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